I have seen this growing tendency of people, and actually Nintendo themselves, saying that they are the only innovators of the game market, and thats what they have been doing all along.

I kind of disagree with nintendo deserving the title of bringing original and new creative ideas for the market.

First of all, starting back in the SNES days. The idea of a CD system was brought up. Nintendo started announcing plans for a cd add on for this 16 bit system. This never happened. Why is this? Because they moved on to saying they needed to create a more powerful 32 bit system that would use the CD as a format.

Sony and Philips were helping them with this. What is the result? They drop it again. Around these times, Sega CD is out, as well as Philips CD-I ( a console with lisenced games from Nintendo). Pointing out here Nintendo' s will to stick with their already old cartridge, is this innovative?

They announce later that they drop their plans for the 32 bit system. Sony are fired and their work with Philips is trashed. The result is? Later Playstation sells 100 000 000 copies. That was a bit fast forward, so lets go back. After this comes out, Nintendo again talks about using CD for their new system. The final news of them not using CD arrives. Instead, they will continue to use their cartridge system.

When Gamecube comes, finally they use a cd/dvd based system. 10 years after it first was used. Is this innovative? Plus, it cant even play movies, and they the fact is, the format issue is kind of retarded now. Because does the gamecube have multiplayer possibilites? No, they reject online features at this point with silly arguments. Playstation 2 gets online a bit later, with popular titles online like FFXI, Ratched and Clank, Socom, SSX, though still they dont get credit for being properly online.

Moving on, as we just as recent as last year saw Nintendo with online features last year on their DS. Lets talk about design and interactive playing.

Talking about the DS, remember that design and look at this 1982 Donkey Kong portable game: http://www.1up.com/media?id=2303255
Have nintendo been as innovative as they claim to be?

Also, if you look at the Philips CD-I controller here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Philips_CD-i.jpg
And compare that with the Super Nintendo controllers. Innovative? That is also by the way the first controller I' ve seen with a joystick on, and this came way before N64' s controller.

Also, I want you to look at this once again Philips CD-I controller http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/mallorcadisco/infoconsolas/fotos/Philips/CDI/cdi3.jpg
Am I the only one getting associations with the nunchuck?

Now I' m not saying Nintendo doesnt do great things. They are one of the big ones, and I' m not an ignorant Playstation fan, I am a Playstation fan but not ignorant. Anyway, the new wiimote is great right. But is this truly innovative? Nintendo wants players to get up from their couches, and not limit gaming to pressing buttons on a controller anymore, but is this really their idea?

Here you need to know a little Arcade history, as well as be aware of the past, Sony is especially interesting here.
Have anyone of you played boxing games on the arcade? Where you use a virtual glove?
Or how many of you havent played games with lightguns? Arent these two highly fun and interactive?
Have you not seen how many interactive creations there are for arcade games? Lots of them even surpass Nintendo' s wiimote in certain ways, like the boxing glove if I may say so.
Did anyone for instance notice the Onimusha Sword released 2 years ago, that allowed you to wave the sword so it affected the game?
Now most of this technology has been available for some time, but I want to say something to those who mean that Sony never invents anything new, just improve.
This is so interesting to me because some of their really great inventions for gaming have already made the change, that players can get up from their couch and use their body to play.
Look at Eyetoy, that films you as you can use your hands and feet to affect whats on screen. Personally, it would not surprise me if someone in Nintendo commented on this mass hit and said they had to make some physical form of gaming as well. That is a vague oportunity yes, but I am entitled to my opinion saying that the wiimote can be a counter to the eyetoy.

Now not only focusing on the eyetoy, what about singstar? Isnt that great interactive entertainment. That really expanded the horizon of karaoke, and at the same time gave wider meaning to the word games, on consoles.

So in counter to those who claims that sony is not being innovative enough, does this help? I try to look at this objectivly as possible, and dont mean to bash anything. But as a Sony fan, I have done loads of research on this the last months, and felt I had to bring some valid info to the table.

Also I want to remark that Sony, who uses third parties by a greater scale than Nintendo, (how much by percentage was Nintendo games this E3?) really has helped bringing the arcade interactivity, and new creations into the homes for each gamer. For the Playstation you can have the Onimusha sword, a lightgun, an Eyetoy, Singstar, Buzz quizgame, Gameglove etc etc. And not to mention Microsoft had motion sensing controllers with their Sidewinder.

I didnt realise this thread was gonna be so long lol, I hope its interesting and nonbashing. As I' m excited to try out the wiimote myself. But I dont want to give credit for Nintendo bringing this as something completely new.

I could completely RIP your post to shreds, but i' m not going to. I think others will do it in good time though.

Quick note; N64 didn' t have a " joystick" it had an " analog stick" and they are very different, both in design and in use.

you have interested me, if there are some errors in it please let me know

What does the way a console looks have to do with innovation.

it contributes to a product not looking new, and a company using old design formulas
About the joystick, sorry, analogue stick. and i fail to see the difference in usage if you look at the controllers

Also, I know some of you might want to point out how I do not mention functionality at certain points. I' m fully aware of DS' s touch screen, and fully aware that Nintendo had a lightgun way before Playsation saw the light of day. But what im pointing out here is playstation and other companies trying to expand the market, as well as having original ideas.

Ok, i' ll be gentle though.

You talked about how Nintendo were developing a CD based add-on for the SNES, and how the plans were scrapped and development begun on a 32bit (not actual 32bit) system, before the deal fell through. That' s all well and good, but you make it look like it was Nintendo' s fault.

The deal fell though because even though Nintendo had funded much of the drives development, Sony wanted complete ownership of the rights to the technology because they knew they could make loads of money by selling to 3rd parties. When Nintendo contested Sony started to make thing difficult and the entire deal fell through.

Nintendo' s decision to use cartridges for N64 games wasn' t their best, but they did allow for zero load times. Nintendo DID release a CD drive for N64 but only in Japan and it wasn' t successful.

Then you missed out Dreamcast as having online play, better online play than Playstation has had, and with proper web browsing to boot.

You should also take not that the 1982 Donkey Kong portable you referred to is a Nintendo product, and DS not only has dual screen but also has a touchscreen and microphone. They also happen to have used tilt and rumble functionality in a couple of GBA games, built into the cartridges.

The Philips CD-I controller didn' t work anything like an analog stick and certainly didn' t have digital precision. Nintendo introduced the first analog stick in a console controller in the form on the N64 pad which was unveilled at E3 (in whatever year), but Sega rushed an analog (NiGHTS) pad to market before N64 was released. Sony went on to release the Dual Analog controller for Playstation, even though very few games utilized the right analog stick properly if at all.

If you are simply talking about having an arcade-like stick, then...



Then you went on to talk about arcades and completely lost me. At this point, Nintndo had already released a light gun (firstly with the NES back in 89), SNES had the Super Scope and had been the first to include shoulder buttons on the SNES pad and they virtually invented the d-pad.

For the Playstation you can have the Onimusha sword, a lightgun, an Eyetoy, Singstar, Buzz quizgame, Gameglove

And for Gamecube you can have; Wavebird (RF wireless controller), DK Bongos for use with the music games Donkey Konga, Donkey Konga 2 and Donkey Konga 3, and the Donkey Kong platform title Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, Microphone, which plugs into memory card slot, for use with Mario Party 6, Mario Party 7, and Karaoke Revolution Party. Odama also includes a microphone clip to clip on to the controller, A dance pad, included with Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix, and erm maraccas?!

Nintendo HAVE brought an awful lot to the industry, and if they weren' t pushing the industry in a new direction then how come Sony are putting an accelerometer in their controller?!

I could completely RIP your post to shreds, but i' m not going to. I think others will do it in good time though.

I totally agree - I don' t feel like writing how stupid every word of this post is...

But what im pointing out here is playstation and other companies trying to expand the market, as well as having original ideas.

I don' t think this has anything to do with this topic but hell it' s all nonsense so who cares

And please ...playstation is not a company...seriously man.

:)

I read the post and the beggining I thought...I love they way he' s challenging nintendo as innovators (cos life ain' t interesting if everyone always agrees)...but a couple of things the game gear is like someone said nintendo' s product and I did bring that up a while ago in relation to the comparison to the ds.

I disagree that sony are expanding with original ideas (unless I missed the rabbit they pulled when I wasn' t looking) sony does stuff in their gaming sector that really make me think for one there' s this guy that was saying he' s had to fix so many sony consoles with mis-aligned lasers, amongst other things that make me think in depth about their motive (saying that though I guess consoles do have their glitches).

Side note did the doa4 arcade stick have anything to do with nintendo?.

the fact that gamecube has those titles ( some of them which are counterparts to Sony' s ones ) dont neutralise playstations titles and the genious creations for it.

Dancemats were first released for playstation, the bongos were originally invented by namco, karaoke games for it are their answer to singstar, the maracas were invented by sega (if i remember correctly)
the lightgun was released for nes yes, existed in arcades before though, at this time nintendo had a golden chance in bringing in arcade technology to console, thats why i talk about the arcades

what i remember is nintendo publically stating that they dropped the cd format because it had loading times and non writeability, that you had those advantages with their cartridge (which i guess they only still used for n64 since they had the patent on it and earned lots of money extra on selling them)

and was i the only one not thinking Dual shock when gamecube was released with its controller. That controllers form and shape was completely copied from dual shock. Just some buttons and sticks were placed in different order.
Some say then again that sony stole the whole concept of an analogue stick from the N64 controller. But look at the two of them, they are completely different. And now, the entire world has set the dual shock as a standard form for controller.
That credit goes to sony for having created the great controller interface.

Again I bring up Eyetoy as an incredible invention from sony, that has become a major hit and has brought people out from their couches to play. So Nintendo, its already done, but by all means, do the same you too.

I like the fact that you' re giving arcade machines some credit for some of the innovation the industry has seen.
And I' ve also stated myself that Sony has done some very innovative things as well.
But I can' t agree that Nintendo hasn' t innovated anything as your subject says. Even though you may not think they are the most innovative company it really is wrong to make it sound as they haven' t innovated anything.
Talking about the CD story is kind of stupid because Nintendo' s big strength hasn' t been in innovating technology, especially not what kind of media that' s used.
Nintendo innovates stuff that affects how you control and experience the videogames aswell as pure in-game gameplay innovations.
Also, Nintendo' s cartridges prevented piracy. I mean just look at the Playstation and all the piracy the CD-format led to.
The Gamecube didn' t play movies but that wasn' t intended. The lack of DVD-drive made the console cost less which reflects Nintendo' s approach to making consumer friendly products.
The Philips console you showed was released one year later than the SNES so they copied Nintendo. The joystick you see is just a joystick as you say. But Nintendo created the analogstick which is completely different as Majik said.
The Philips remote-controller is remote-shaped but it doesn' t have the same funtionality as the Wii-mote. The comparson of the Wii-mote and the Philips controller is like comparing the Wii-console with a white chocolate box just because they look the same.
In the end, no company has innovated the industry as much as Nintendo. It' s a fact and you better learn it.

I fact Cetra, listen to ginjirou and just ignore me. He' s the reason i am being so soft (?)

Sometimes it' s OK to be rough
Just don' t overdo it.

well done ,well done awesome majikdra6on
you have educate this guy....i cant believe thats he is still trying to
make a stand,,,,,complete FALSE
maybe he trying to make his name famous about the most worst
journalist ever walk on earth !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i almost break my keyboard i cant still breath propely.
cocky kids.....where he read this s.... anyway

I dont think your being rough at all, I can completely cope with your argument, however i can disagree. But first let me say that the response is very good and objective here. On other forums I would be called a damn psx n00b fanboy and stupid and not being able to realise anything.

However, it was never intended to take away from Nintendo that they havent innovated anything. Just.. there are different levels of innovation, but what I rebel against is that Nintendo is the only one to bring something new to the table now with the wiimote, and the only one that innovates something at all.

I support the fact that sony also brings genious innovations that are just as important, and that nintendo does not deserve all the honour. Look at eyetoy, its genious, and with the new eye of judgement coming, it gets even more genious. This will also, change the way we play games. Especially when the eye of judgment seem more advanced, and more universal so it can reach into more types of games.

Some times here might confuse me, I live in Norway you see, and here we got the SNES in 92, and when I browse the web I see the Philips CD-I came out in 91, and find no date for the SNES release.

Now what I disagree with you a little bit on, is Nintendo' s goal in reaching gamers. Because their old sloguns used to be " Now you' re playing with the power" for either Nes or Snes.
They constantly put pressure on having the latest and greatest withing hardware power, back when their competitors were SEGA. Now they obviously have stepped off that latter. But only now.

I mean to say that Gamecube was an attempt to catch up in time, by these factors: CD drive, Controller like Dual shock, New powerfull hardware that beat the Playstation2.

Well Sony and other companies has done lots of innovations indeed .
Nintendo' s extreme approach to innovation is just marketing. But if anyone has the right to market themselves as innovative, it' s them.
They haven' t said that they' ve done all innovations in the industry have they? That' s just something you think.
If you search SNES on wikipedia you' ll see a release date. 1990.
I' ve said myself that before the DS and the Wii Nintendo has always been marketing themselves as the ones with the most powerful console. But, as I believe Majik explained, they innovated even during those times. The SNES and the N64 was supposed to be very powerful but yet they were more innovative than powerful.
The Gamecube was Nintendo' s least innovative product of all time. I think we all agree with that.

We agree on that yes. But Nintendo says the other companies are still doing the same thing, just improving graphics etc. And these other companies are only Sony and MS.

Nintendo hints to these other companies not being as innovative as the are, this is where I think they cross the line, based on what you agree with me on, that Sony has been just as innovative.

I think the N64 was far less innovative than the Playstation, which perfectly utilized the CD' s true capacity, while Nintendo kept on using their old outdated cartridges. This is based on my first post about the formats.

So actually based on this, I think Sony has been the more innovative one since th
e release of Playstation and up til now. First of all going for a new format that set the new digital standard. And for coming up with great innovations like eyetoy, guitar hero, singstar etc for their console.

Besides, its known by historians that those who win the war write the history. Take this into the console war perspective, and its premarketing. This is what nintendo is trying to write, by calling themselves the only innovators.

Btw, I am certain that most people cares a little bit more about graphics than nintendo thinks. I love seing graphics progress and get better and detailed etc, its just the best eyecandy there is, next to naked women.

I think Nintendo also is saving tons of money on using the new controller as an excuse for crappy outdated graphics. Wouldnt it be truly great if you got the controller and new super hd next gen graphics as well? They' ve already hinted at a Wii HD, (article on IGN)

(btw, I dont think I have provided much false information at all, some misinterpretations yes, but most are of general facts)

Yeah that was the first of nintendo' s console I ever refused to buy for a while and I loved the 64 (even when most of my friends didn' t), but I just thought the gamecube looked like a brick that played mini discs (which was useless for me) saying that thought I did get one later on.

and was i the only one not thinking Dual shock when gamecube was released with its controller. That controllers form and shape was completely copied from dual shock. Just some buttons and sticks were placed in different order.

heh

Nintendo copied NES design from rectangular launchboxes!!! those bastards :)

think of n64.........you are right more innovated than powerful and thats a proof
for nintendo.
before world actually got to play mario64, the n64 was mired in controversy.
there were the multiple launch delays.there was the lack of software support,
with just 3 games confirmed for launch.
one was japanese chess title.plus there was the catridge format itself,short ram
space and unpopular with developers .of course there was the promise of bulky drive
but many regarded this as nintendos 32x an attempt to just keep up with times.
but all this faded away when gamers discovered mario 64.nintendo had promised
one of the best games ever,and it was right.
cartoon-like animation beautiful locations,hours of gameplay
=======this was not so much a game as a defining moment in videogames history.in 70s was pong,in 80s pac-man.and 90s have mario64 END OF STORY.
if thats isnt innovation then what in the hell is?????????????????????????????

You' re right that Nintendo hints that other companies aren' t innovative.
But they' re kind of right because he thing is that the other companies have their focus on power. And the innovations they' ve made probably woudn' t have been made without Nintendo since Nintendo has always been forcing their competitors to be innovative. The Dual Shock, smart idea and Sony should have the credits, is a direct result of Nintendo' s innovations. By that example (there' s more) we can clearly see that it' s Nintendo that pushes the focus on innovation.
Lots of the gameplay innovations you' re thinking about weren' t made by Sony but by developers. This means that those games might as well have been released on a Nintendo console but Sony happens to have more money so they just buy all the innovative 3rd party exclusives.