Jeezus, we' re getting deep here guys.

Killer7 fits into that catagory (as No More Heroes probably will, as well), and Beyond Good & Evil was released on the Gamecube. Eternal Darkness also could fit into that category. It didn' t have a central theme like what you' re talking about, but the historical analysis in the game and psychological aspects of it deepen the game. These are old examples, I know, but so are the ones you used.

How many games like what you' re talking about exist, anyway? I can' t think of many.

Whoops, scratch Good & Evil off my list then, and I' ll give you cred for Eternal Darkness because it' s Lovecraft inspired. But really, how many titles has Nintendo created that make you think, " Wow. That' s a little deep for a videogame" ? I' m not sure about you, but despite a really interesting perspective on the facist Mushroom Kingdom, that' s just not what I think about when I play.

I' ve got highest hopes for No More Heroes, but it' s being advertised like Red Steel was, & that worries me. The sort of " ZOMG Volinz on t3h Wii" is being pushed a smidgen too far IMO.

Legend of Zelda has always steered towards a strong theme, hell Twilight Princess was such a dark game, yet kid' s eat it up and forget about anything aside from the " cool fights" .

That' s what I' m talking about! Perfect example by the way, thanks (no sarcasm intended). Zelda has some very deep themes if you' re willing to spend the time to look for them, but back to the " least-common-denominator" , the majority of people won' t pick them up. I like games that make me think, & challenge me beyond reflexes & puzzle solving. I want to walk away from a good game like I did when I first saw The Matrix. I dunno, it' s the best way to describe it I can think of.

There' s nothing wrong with Nintendo games, they' re usually of the highest quality, but sometimes you want to be MADE to think about stuff a little.

Teh panic, it' s already 6:30 am over here.

Well, it' s hard for me to speak specifically because I don' t buy kiddie games. But I' m mostly talking about movie franchise games like the game based on Disney' s " Cars" movie. No adult without kids is seriously interested in a simplistic racer based on a movie about talking cars, even if they enjoyed the movie. They even designed a " kids" mode within the game.
Better example, " Madagascar" . That game is so simple my 7-year-old niece finished it in less than a day.

Nintedo' s own games aren' t " kiddie" , they' re family-friendly. There' s a huge difference.

...both Cars and Madagascar are surely more cheap movie tie-ins than they are games aimed at a younger audience? ...and what would be a example of a good " kiddie" game?

....i can see how " family friendly" is probably the best description generally though..

I' ve got highest hopes for No More Heroes, but it' s being advertised like Red Steel was, & that worries me.

I haven' t even seen No More Heroes advertised. Are you talking about the trailer? That seemed fine to me.

I like games that make me think, & challenge me beyond reflexes & puzzle solving.

If that' s what you' re talking about, Eddie, then I have to agree with f3hunter. This is kinda turning into, " I wish Nintendo didn' t make Nintendo games."

Nintendo is famous for making a certain type of game. A game you can pick up at any time, any day, and play. No trying to remember delicate plot points or subtle insinuations that occured two hours ago and just now became important.

To do this, Nintendo makes the games simple. It has to. If it didn' t, the games wouldn' t sell as much (which you said). You can' t ask them to make a game that won' t sell as well. That' s ludicrous.

Other companies do make games like this, but these are precious few. For the reason already stated, they don' t sell as well. I do enjoy these types of games and wish there were more of them (alot more), but Nintendo won' t and shouldn' t abandon a successful formula.

Also, think about what would happen if Nintendo did suddenly change game types. Not only would the general audience be surprised/pissed, but the game wouldn' t make sense. The Mario Brothers movie provides an interesting example (though I can' t believe I' m using it). The movie was an experiment, and one that failed. Even if the story and the actors had been good, would you like it? Most people said about Spirits Within that the main reason they didn' t like it more was, " It wasn' t Final Fantasy."

As for new IPs, I don' t know. I' m not sure if Nintendo could make a deep, subtle game. I also don' t really know if I want them to try. Their type of games are fine, and as long as they try to get other developers to fill the gap on their console, then it should be fine.

ORIGINAL: Bishonen


...both Cars and Madagascar are surely more cheap movie tie-ins than they are games aimed at a younger audience? ...and what would be a example of a good " kiddie" game?

....i can see how " family friendly" is probably the best description generally though..

Well, " kiddie" games can' t be defined as " good" by anyone' s stardards over the age of 10. They are designed to keep the kid' s attention with familiar characters and simple, non-challenging gameplay.
My niece finished Madagascar in an afternoon, but she played it again and again because she liked it. And her little brother watched her every second. That' s fine, they' re kids. They' re supposed to like it. It was made for people that age.
The fact that I was sitting on the couch ready to pull out my own eyeballs was really irrelevant. The target audience, the kids, were truly pleased. So i guess you could call that a " good" game.



I think the Nintendo " kiddie" label only exists amongst those who call themselves " mature gamers" . Arrogant pricks who think they know what everyone should be enjoying because they' re so HARDCORE. The average person sees Nintendo as the Disney of videogame companies. Safe, wholesome entertainment for everyone.

Nintendo has Metroid Prime
Metroid Prime>Everything
The end

There' s nothing wrong with Nintendo games, they' re usually of the highest quality, but sometimes you want to be MADE to think about stuff a little

FFS, get your head outta MS' s backside and THINK about what your saying:

Braintraining / Wario Ware /

Two games that were made from ground up for this exact reason.



Nintendo > All.

FFS, get your head outta MS' s backside and THINK about what your saying:

Cheap shot F3h, I' ve had a cube/PS2 waaay longer than I' ve had an Xbox 360.

Also, I never owned an original Xbox. Also ignoring the fact that I didn' t list any Xbox games when I was talking about " deep" titles. Microsoft could deal with some more emotionally engaging titles. I didn' t include them because they' ve set their image far from kid friendly, which isn' t necessarily a good thing. Just because I don' t like Nintendo' s image, doesn' t mean that Microsoft' s is anything amazing either.

A game you can pick up at any time, any day, and play. No trying to remember delicate plot points or subtle insinuations that occured two hours ago and just now became important.

But I like that.

The Mario Brothers movie provides an interesting example (though I can' t believe I' m using it). The movie was an experiment, and one that failed. Even if the story and the actors had been good, would you like it?

But I liked that too.

Nintendo > All.

I could tell you to get your head out of your ass too though couldn' t I? I don' t like favoring one company. It makes me sound irrational, & unwilling to change. Certain companies do things better, and certain companies do less of certain things. (I won' t say any company has the inability to make good things).

as long as they try to get other developers to fill the gap on their console, then it should be fine.

That' s what I' m asking for. I should also add the fact that they should be exclusive.

Nintendo has Metroid Prime
Metroid Prime>Everything
The end

That sir, is undebatable. You' ve completely shut my rationale down. Less than a year now dude, just, just gotta keep telling that to myself.

>The Punisher has hijacked this thread, expect it to be punished in 20 min.

(Watching the punisher (original with Dolph Lundgren))

I really have nothing to add aside from the fact Final Fantasy Tactics was one of the deepest (themewise) games I have played that was below a M rating.

Up until now, Nintendo consoles have always focussed on kids, but this in no way makes me enjoy any of their games any less then I do a fantastic adult title and it certainly shouldn’t for anyone else either. They generally make fantastic titles that are simply too good to be played solely by their young target audience and if people don’t play them because of their saccharine sweet exterior, then it’s their loss, it‘s that simple. I’m a big Nintendo fan and wish them all the best with their new tactics for the Wii.

Up until now, Nintendo consoles have always focussed on kids, but this in no way makes me enjoy any of their games any less then I do a fantastic adult title and it certainly shouldn’t for anyone else either.

Certainly not, & I don' t enjoy their titles any less because of that. I just want a little variety, that' s all.

>The Punisher has hijacked this thread, expect it to be punished in 20 min.

(Watching the punisher (original with Dolph Lundgren))

LOL, the one movie you pretend to hate, but you really secretly want to see it again.

I really have nothing to add aside from the fact Final Fantasy Tactics was one of the deepest (themewise) games I have played that was below a M rating

. Y' know, I wasn' t a big fan of it, but yeah, I could definately see where you' re coming from there.

FFS, get your head outta MS' s backside and THINK about what your saying:

Nintendo > All.

Teh sighzorz

I wonder why Nintendo would want to focus on children. It' s obvious that it' s a bad business model, especially after seeing how PS1 was a success thanks to Sony' s focus on mainstream consumers.
I have to say that the games Nintendo makes are just as, or even more, enjoyable to adults as they are for kids. But the consoles on the other hand are poorly designed. Both the N64 and the GCN looked like plastic toys, not exactly something you' d like to show off in your livingroom.
They did a better design job with the Wii though and if they can get enough support from 3d party developers then they can change their image from kiddy to, at least, neutral.
My fear is that 3rd party developers will not dare to develop Wii games with focus on " mature gameplay" . But seeing how good RE4 did on the Gamecube most developers should realise that making " mature" games on the Wii will probably be very profitable.
Nintendo seems to be looking to create more adult games themselves, being more specific: Project H.A.M.M.E.R. and Disaster: Day of Crisis.
Hopefully they' ve got more up their sleeves but personally, I' m happy with what they' ve got right now.
I just hope 3rd party developers will join Nintendo this time around.
I think that what makes Nintendo' s games appear more kiddie is that they focus on pure fun through gameplay, while other developers might be trying to focus more on story, graphics and attitude.
For a guy like me, who puts gameplay and pure fun above everything else, Nintendo is without a doubt the best developers out there.

My fear is that 3rd party developers will not dare to develop Wii games with focus on " mature gameplay" . But seeing how good RE4 did on the Gamecube most developers should realise that making " mature" games on the Wii will probably be very profitable.

IMO the Wii is the first console in a while that Nintendo has a chance to make mature games for. The N64 was largely bought by younger gamers, the Gamecube even more so(both have exceptions in Japan). The Wii however has gotten into more mainstream households thanks to its wii-mote. If they don' t capitalize on this opportunity then it will be pretty obvious that they don' t want to make or be part of more mature games.

For a guy like me, who puts gameplay and pure fun above everything else, Nintendo is without a doubt the best developers out there.

I would say that they produce more fun games with good gameplay than some of my favorite developers, but then again they are bigger. However, as a guy that puts the amount of good games that are pure fun and have good gameplay above everything else, Nintendo still hasn' t convinced me to drop my cash on the Wii.

I wonder why Nintendo would want to focus on children. It' s obvious that it' s a bad business model, especially after seeing how PS1 was a success thanks to Sony' s focus on mainstream consumers.

It' s not a bad business model. In some ways it' s the same as the McDonald' s business model, which is to " hook ' em when they' re young" and make lifelong loyal customers. (Please note that I consider Nintendo products to be much higher quality than McDonald' s products.) I know quite a few young parents who grew up with the NES and have bought Gamecubes and Wiis for their kids (and themselves) now.

I think the narrow variety of styles and attitude that are considered to be " mature" by gamers are really only appealing to young men in their late teens and early-to-mid 20s (and, frankly, older men who have settled into a state of arrested development). The way I see it, Nintendo isn' t so much focused on " kiddie" games as it is on games that have more timeless and ageless appeal.

Lots of gamers like to go around and around about which console is gaining the most market share. But Nintendo has developed a business model in which that aspect doesn' t matter, because they are making far and away more net profit than any other console manufacturer. That ultimately is why they don' t feel a whole lot of pressure from older gamers clamoring for more " mature" themes.

So, their current business model really can' t be criticized too harshly because it' s clearly quite successful. And this is an acknowledgement coming from someone who despises Nintendo as a business (not their creative staff) because they built their empire on illegal business practices in the 1980s. Frankly I' d like to see them go out of business, but they' re crafty f*ckers.

Well, " kiddie" games can' t be defined as " good" by anyone' s stardards over the age of 10. They are designed to keep the kid' s attention with familiar characters and simple, non-challenging gameplay.

I have to disagree to a certain extent. Surely as someone older than 10 you can see an obvious difference in quality between Barney the Dinosaur on the one hand, and The Muppets on the other hand. Both are aimed at kids, but not only are The Muppets just obviously way better, there is also content in there that can be enjoyed and appreciated by older people, whereas Barney just makes you want to rip out your own throat and flog yourself with it.

But... eh... uh... okay that makes sense.

And this is an acknowledgement coming from someone who despises Nintendo as a business (not their creative staff) because they built their empire on illegal business practices in the 1980s. Frankly I' d like to see them go out of business, but they' re crafty f*ckers.

Okay Zoy. I don' t want to belive any of that, but it' s interesting, can you elaborate?


STORYTIME!

All right, gather ' round children. Let grandpa Zoy tell you about the late 1980s, when Nintendo held an unprecedented 90% U.S. market share for home video game consoles, trailed distantly by Sega and the last remaining vestiges of the original company called Atari.

As we all know, the NES wasn' t technically the most powerful of the consoles then available, but its vast library of games, most of which were by 3rd party developers and publishers, was one of its main appeals. But it wasn' t that 3rd party companies didn' t want to develop for the SMS, it was that they were prevented from doing so by Nintendo through practices that were later determined to be illegal in a series of antitrust lawsuits settled by the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) in 1991 -- the first such action by the FTC in over a decade.

Nintendo had already established certain shady practices -- older gamers will recall a so-called " chip shortage" circa 1988 that turned out to be completely trumped-up -- in order to maintain an iron-fist style of control over both 3rd parties and retailers.

The " Nintendo Seal of Approval" was one such aspect of control that 3rd party companies bristled against, since it restricted their creative freedom by limiting their annual number of releases -- for example, Konami subsequently created the imprint Ultra in order to be able to release more games than Nintendo was allowing them to. In another notable case, Atari Games (at this point a separate company than the one that made the home consoles) reverse-engineered the NES cartridge interface and created an imprint, Tengen, that released games without the Nintendo Seal of Approval -- including licensed Sega ports! (Nintendo later tangled with Tengen/Atari Games of the coveted Tetris license, as Atari Games had the license for coin-ops and Nintendo claimed to have it for home consoles.)

On the retail end, the " chip shortage" enabled Nintendo to effectively price-fix the market and prevent retailers from lowering the prices of games to compete with each other. This was ultimately ruled illegal by the FTC, but in a brilliantly slimy move, Nintendo ' remedied' the situation around 1991 by issuing $5 coupons to people who had previously bought their games at what were determined to be artificially inflated prices. It was a brilliantly slimy move because these were not rebates -- they were coupons that could only be redeemed by purchasing an additional NES cartridge! In effect, Nintendo spun their punishment to encourage consumers to buy even more from them.

Nintendo' s reign of scuz was eventually ended as 3rd party companies emerged from their exclusivity windows (which, unlike the typical sorts of 6-month or 1-year exclusivity windows we see these days, back in the 8-bit days lasted several years -- long enough to stifle the competition from the Master System) and began developing for the Sega Genesis / Mega Drive.

Look at the difference between the market share of the 8-bit era, and the market shares of console manufactures for each subsequent era. The difference is that Nintendo both bent and broke the law in the 8-bit era. The outcome has always been very different when they have had to compete on a level playing field. (Relatively level, that is. This is capitalism we' re talking about, after all.)

Anyway, hope you enjoyed storytime. You can find more details by googling on terms like Nintendo + antitrust + nes.

Adam has this Nintendo documentary that mentions some of the bad stuff Nintendo has done. It was that BBC documentary Outrageous fortunes and some of the guys in it are former Kikzio staff members or something..
You could download it from Kikizo a while ago but I don' t know if you still can. Adam?

Wow,

That' s... interesting

Thanks Zoy.