ORIGINAL: Agent Ghost

If there is no God that also means there is nothing to live for. I don' t understand the point in living personally if there is no afterlife,

The purpose is to survive. That' s what a lifeform does. Just like a plant, a frog, a lion. It' s ***ing simple. In no point in our evolution from reptiles to apes to humans did we gain some sort of special status where we deserve a god or a higher purpose. Our function is the same as it is for any other living organism, simply to survive. Which is a useless goal when we' re going to die anyways. Tough shit eh? No one said we have to like it.

That is the most pathetic view on existence ever. You live to die. If that is the case there is no reason to live. Cut out the middle man.

So you are a pussy. You listen to other people and you just fall in line (don' t give me that " I' m an individual" bullshit).

How are you not a pussy by your own standards again? You' re afraid of an invisible man living in the clouds. You don' t even have the guts to get laid, because you think the invisible man wants you to get married first. lol You' re a nice guy and everything. I' m not trying to piss you off, but try to think outside the box for a second. What if you' re just wrong. Do you think you' re wasting your life? Do you think god would want you to waste your life and not have any fun?

Just because we' re don' t fear death, doesn' t mean we' re malicious. That doesn' t mean I don' t have a moral code. My personal philosophy is to get by on the bare minimum. I don' t have the desire to do anything crazy because I don' t want to put myself in an uncomfortable position. I still feel pain and pleasure. I don' t really have much desire to excel at anything though.

But I have this inner conflict. The other side is saying, I should just protest life and just piss it all away. Not because it would make a difference, but because that would be my way of representing myself. If you can' t really accomplish anything in life that lasts then why not go out in a bang like you were saying Rampage?

Should I act based on my desire to be lazy and do as little as possible or my desire to end it soon in a bang?

I' m getting ready to join the forces during wartime. If I do infact go through with my plans you' ll know which direction I took.

I' d like to point out the part where you say I' m a pussy by my own standards. That' s completely incorrect. With my views there is a consequence. Heaven and hell. I have a reason to behave the way I do. I have a reason to follow a certain lifestyle. If you don' t believe in a God or such and you don' t think the ultimate consequence is hell you should have absolutely no fear of consequence. If it' s all going to end anyway morality, reason, good, bad, right, wrong, all mean nothing. They are man made forms of control. I don' t believe religion is a man made form of control, I do believe in a God so there is a big difference here. I have to live with the fact that when I die I have to take responsibility for my current life for the rest of eternity. People that don' t believe in a final consequence shouldn' t have any concept of fear. If you know you are going to die and that will be the end of it none of laws of society should hold you down. The worst that could happen is you' d cease to exist and you claim to have come to terms with that... which is very questionable considering you still live by societies outlines.

You also bring up what if I am wrong, what if I am " wasting my life" . How can I waste my life? If there is nothing after death you can' t possibly waste life. If you die and there is nothing what does life really mean? Nothing. All memory and experiences mean jack shit by your definition of life and death. So what if I don' t have sex until I' m married? So what if I don' t do drugs? This applies to any action. If I die and there is no God or afterlife or whatever you want to call it none of it matters anyway. All you have is the here and the now and even that doesn' t matter if it' s just going to fade into the empty time line of the universe.

Then you talk about a moral code. What the f*ck is morality when this race is doomed to begin with? It' s bullshit, that' s what it is. There is no place for it. Your living in just as much of an illusion as me in my religion for believing that crap. Again, if death is finite morality and your actions towards others mean absolutely nothing. If you claim it does than you are creating your illusion to comfort yourself during life. That' s just as bad as believing in a God even if there isn' t one.

Pain and pleasure is another thing. Once again, and I will continue to drive this home, if death is finite those don' t matter because when you die it will be as though those feelings never happened in the first place. It reminds me of something my coach told me in track and cross country- " Suffering 50 seconds or hours whether it be a race or practice, that is nothing in the grand scheme of things so why not lay everything on the line?" That' s basically the same question I' m posing. For me that quote really hits hard, not just for running and working out but for life itself and the afterlife. What is the suffering of having to behave along the guidelines of the Catholic religion worth? If I' m right an, eternity in Heaven. If I' m wrong... absolutely nothing. For those that don' t believe in the afterlife the answer is quite clear. Honestly I don' t even consider this suffering. Do think it actually pains me to not have sex? Lol, of coarse it doesn' t. I enjoy life. I' ve had a great run thus far even living in the boarders of religion. I don' t see how that' s a bad thing or how you guys have to constantly criticize that. In fact that' s pretty pathetic that you cut down people' s beliefs like that and why I' m going ahead and questioning your beliefs. At least I have a purpose to live and I don' t mean to sound cruel saying that.

That' s actually something I said to an athiest friend of mine once and I felt kind of bad for it but he wouldn' t get off my back for believing in God. When I told him his beliefs made himself and life meaningless he was greatly offended but couldn' t retaliate. What can you say to that? Saying you' re living for survival is bullshit when you already know the outcome. Saying that' s the way it is whether you like it or not is also bullshit. If you don' t like it you can just kill yourself because hey, it doesn' t matter. You are nothing.

Saying you have that inner conflict is really what I' m getting at. Even yourself, a person that doesn' t believe in an afterlife... you still follow these codes, regulations, expectations, and laws set up by society (sure not all of them but the vast majority). Even though you believe death is finite and you think that you could just go and blast it all away, you don' t. Why? I don' t think you can even fully answer that question just like I can' t fully answer every question about religion.

Really what this all breaks down to is both sides have their flaws. Both sides have their mysteries. Both sides can be questioned, debated, attacked, and scrutinized. What does it mean? Not a whole lot. It comes down to questioning the fundamentals of a person. Agent, both you and Nitro I consider great guys and a couple of my favorite posters in this forum. I will never try to change your beliefs or opinions. This whole thing about questioning a meaningless life was just to point out the argument can go both ways, not to fight. I would never wish upon any of the athiests here that their life was all for nothing. Still I respect your beliefs. I wish you guys could do the same for us religious members. Attacking our religion, calling us weak, psychotic, slaves, etc... is basically attacking us at our core. I' ve learned to laugh it off but I won' t lie, it still gets me a little every time you say my religion is a corrupt organization that just wants my money and to control me regardless of whether or not this is the case, especially when you yourselves are falling into the same institution with society. I mean hell, I do believe in my faith with every piece of my being. Let me have me and the other religious members have that. It' s not hurting you any and I see no reason why you should have to attack it.

Btw, best of luck if you go into the forces. I know it doesn' t mean much but I' ll keep you in my prayers.

That is the most pathetic view on existence ever. You live to die. If that is the case there is no reason to live. Cut out the middle man.

We do live to die, as it is with everything organic. There is one great reason to live, and its an instinct called self preservation!

I' d like to point out the part where you say I' m a pussy by my own standards. That' s completely incorrect. With my views there is a consequence. Heaven and hell. I have a reason to behave the way I do. I have a reason to follow a certain lifestyle. If you don' t believe in a God or such and you don' t think the ultimate consequence is hell you should have absolutely no fear of consequence. If it' s all going to end anyway morality, reason, good, bad, right, wrong, all mean nothing. They are man made forms of control. I don' t believe religion is a man made form of control, I do believe in a God so there is a big difference here. I have to live with the fact that when I die I have to take responsibility for my current life for the rest of eternity. People that don' t believe in a final consequence shouldn' t have any concept of fear. If you know you are going to die and that will be the end of it none of laws of society should hold you down. The worst that could happen is you' d cease to exist and you claim to have come to terms with that... which is very questionable considering you still live by societies outlines.

Respect! Those are the reasons why i dont run amok, rape, pillage, murder and steal, I respect other peoples lives, their feelings. We only have one life to live, it wouldnt be fair for me to ruin any one elses.

You also bring up what if I am wrong, what if I am " wasting my life" . How can I waste my life? If there is nothing after death you can' t possibly waste life. If you die and there is nothing what does life really mean? Nothing. All memory and experiences mean jack shit by your definition of life and death. So what if I don' t have sex until I' m married? So what if I don' t do drugs? This applies to any action. If I die and there is no God or afterlife or whatever you want to call it none of it matters anyway. All you have is the here and the now and even that doesn' t matter if it' s just going to fade into the empty time line of the universe.

I wont judge if you are wasting yourlife. But if your following rules that will in no way benefit you when you die, and there are expiriences that you havent had in this one life. Then thats a wasted opportunity.
Think of it as your parents setting strong restrictions as a kid for no apparent purpose but because they can.

Then you talk about a moral code. What the f*ck is morality when this race is doomed to begin with? It' s bullshit, that' s what it is. There is no place for it. Your living in just as much of an illusion as me in my religion for believing that crap. Again, if death is finite morality and your actions towards others mean absolutely nothing. If you claim it does than you are creating your illusion to comfort yourself during life. That' s just as bad as believing in a God even if there isn' t one.

Again, Respect for others is morality as well,. And ofcourse the unpleasantness of punishment isnt fun either.

Pain and pleasure is another thing. Once again, and I will continue to drive this home, if death is finite those don' t matter because when you die it will be as though those feelings never happened in the first place. It reminds me of something my coach told me in track and cross country- " Suffering 50 seconds or hours whether it be a race or practice, that is nothing in the grand scheme of things so why not lay everything on the line?" That' s basically the same question I' m posing. For me that quote really hits hard, not just for running and working out but for life itself and the afterlife. What is the suffering of having to behave along the guidelines of the Catholic religion worth? If I' m right an, eternity in Heaven. If I' m wrong... absolutely nothing. For those that don' t believe in the afterlife the answer is quite clear. Honestly I don' t even consider this suffering. Do think it actually pains me to not have sex? Lol, of coarse it doesn' t. I enjoy life. I' ve had a great run thus far even living in the boarders of religion. I don' t see how that' s a bad thing or how you guys have to constantly criticize that. In fact that' s pretty pathetic that you cut down people' s beliefs like that and why I' m going ahead and questioning your beliefs. At least I have a purpose to live and I don' t mean to sound cruel saying that

In the grandscheme of things nothing does mean anything, if your a great human being, a great mind, or leader, the impressions you make on people and the world will live longer than you. Its nothing that will benefit you in anyway, but some might like the idea that their life had meaning for others after they die.

That' s actually something I said to an athiest friend of mine once and I felt kind of bad for it but he wouldn' t get off my back for believing in God. When I told him his beliefs made himself and life meaningless he was greatly offended but couldn' t retaliate. What can you say to that? Saying you' re living for survival is bullshit when you already know the outcome. Saying that' s the way it is whether you like it or not is also bullshit. If you don' t like it you can just kill yourself because hey, it doesn' t matter. You are nothing.

Why should i kill myself! I only have one chance at life. you on the other hand have infinte life when you die. Why dont you kill yourself? Jesus already died for your sins and you have been forgiven for any sin that you might commit.

To sum it up, you can respect others even if you dont believe you will get punished for it eternaly, its called being a nice person.

You could say we live to die, but in more cases thats more true for religious people because dieing means life to you, dieing means death to us. We live to live.

Its kinda scary some of the ways you put it Rampage, if god is the only thing holding you back for murder, rape and pillage, im glad you do believe in god

As i said some people need a higher being to cope with the infinite meaninglesness of life.

Think of the tiniest ant in the forrest, zoom up and view the ant from a man, he steps on it., that ant is nothing, it has had no affect on anything. now zoom out of to view a man from space, when he dies he would have no effect on anything, somebody would take his place. Soom out of the galaxy, if earth ended, it would have no effect on the rest of the galaxy. Hell if you zoom out enough the destruction of our galaxy would mean nothing next to the other millions of galaxies in existence.

My life means just as much as an ants, but that doesnt keep me from wanting to enjoy it.

Rick, why do you believe in God?

If you' d been adopted and raised by an atheist family, do you think you' d still have ended up a Christian?

organisms don' t just live to survive, they live to perpetuate their genes.

We are no different, altough we have developed this ' higher' aim of life after death. Isn' t it safer to believe in god than not, with the former you may if it exists have a life after this, if god doesn' t exist then hey what have you lost? With the latter you have no chance to gain.

ORIGINAL: Ornodeal

with the former you may if it exists have a life after this, if god doesn' t exist then hey what have you lost? With the latter you have no chance to gain.

Not true.

If God doesn' t exist then you' ve unnecessarily adjusted the way you' ve lived your life. Wasted time and effort... all for a maybe.

If God does exist and he doesn' t forgive our sins then we get to go to the hottest party around where all the cool cats will be.

I pity people who have been born into religious families. Look at Eddie... he has to go to church every week... no choice in the matter until he' s whatever age, and then if he doesn' t go it' ll likely be frowned upon. The guy is already and adult as far as i' m concerned. When i was his age i had my own place. These concepts and ideals that they live by are completely alien to me.

It should be mandatory to teach kids at school in every country objectively about religion. Kids shouldnt be allowed to attend church untill they are old enough to make up their own minds.

If God doesn' t exist then you' ve unnecessarily adjusted the way you' ve lived your life. Wasted time and effort... all for a maybe.

well it depends how or if you adjust your life because you believe in religion. Those that say they are abstaining from this or that because of their faith are just sad. I personally don' t (but then I' m probably a really poor example of a Christian, I' m far too skeptical)

Wow Vx you completely missed the point. Completely. You talk about your one shot at life and how you don' t want to waste it. As I pointed out you can' t waste something that is meaningless. Self preservation means nothing when you know you are going to die and nothing happens.

Respect! Those are the reasons why i dont run amok, rape, pillage, murder and steal, I respect other peoples lives, their feelings. We only have one life to live, it wouldnt be fair for me to ruin any one elses.

You may want to read that section you quoted again in reference to this. I pointed out there is a consequence for those WITH religion. You not having a religion shouldn' t have any reason to do whatever it is you want, you have no consequence. What you do to others means absolutely nothing. If you ruin their live so what? They are going to die anyway. Fairness is a man made idea to keep people in line just as much as the ten commandments are (if there is no God). You can' t ruin life if there is no meaning to it to begin with.

I wont judge if you are wasting yourlife. But if your following rules that will in no way benefit you when you die, and there are expiriences that you havent had in this one life. Then thats a wasted opportunity.
Think of it as your parents setting strong restrictions as a kid for no apparent purpose but because they can.

Again, you can' t say I' m wasting life if life itself is meaningless. Experiences mean nothing if when you die there is nothing else. What does it matter if I didn' t have an experience before I die? Will I look back after I' m dead and regret it... in your view no, because death is finite. So it doesn' t matter at all. I can say the same things about you guys. Why do you waste your life working to pay taxes and buy things when in the end it' s all for nothing? Why aren' t you saying " f*ck you" to the world' s rules that are holding you in line and forcing you to live a certain lifestyle? You are just as much being held back by society as I am being held back by religion... except I currently don' t have sex, which I' ve already pointed out doesn' t bother me.

Again, Respect for others is morality as well,. And ofcourse the unpleasantness of punishment isnt fun either.

Respect and morality mean nothing if life is meaningless and death is finite. Unpleasantness I already delved into as well. You could fight it, you don' t have to allow people to punish you. Your pain and suffering mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Why should i kill myself! I only have one chance at life. you on the other hand have infinte life when you die. Why dont you kill yourself? Jesus already died for your sins and you have been forgiven for any sin that you might commit.

Because you are already a walking corpse in your own view. Your one chance at life means nothing. When you die it' s gone as if it never existed. Why don' t I kill myself? Lol, that' s pretty obvious, then I go to hell. You really don' t have time to ask forgiveness when you are blowing your brains out. You really can' t truly be sorry for killing yourself either when you actually go through the act, saying sorry in advance doesn' t work. In religion you still have to ask for forgiveness.

To sum it up, you can respect others even if you dont believe you will get punished for it eternaly, its called being a nice person.

No, it' s called falling in line. It' s called being controlled by society. Being a " nice person" is nothing more than a man made label. If you' re not a nice person what does it matter when you die. You don' t even seem to have come to grips with your own belief on life. You seem to completely neglect the finiteness of death and that if death is all ending actions in life are meaningless.

You could say we live to die, but in more cases thats more true for religious people because dieing means life to you, dieing means death to us. We live to live.

I live to live. My life will go on for all eternity whether that be heaven or hell. You' re already a walking corpse ticking down to a finite end, all the " living" you are doing means absolutely nothing.

Its kinda scary some of the ways you put it Rampage, if god is the only thing holding you back for murder, rape and pillage, im glad you do believe in god

God isn' t holding me back from murder or rape. If I didn' t believe in God I' d probably fall in line and be controlled by society just like the rest of you. Brainwashed and controlled into working and paying taxes while knowing it' s all for nothing because I' m going to die and that' s the meaning of life. Still, I' d probably question why I have to follow these man made institutions.

As i said some people need a higher being to cope with the infinite meaninglesness of life.

And you are doing the same thing believing in respect and morals and all the other things society has molded your brain to follow. You' re just coping yourself. There' s no difference.

Think of the tiniest ant in the forrest, zoom up and view the ant from a man, he steps on it., that ant is nothing, it has had no affect on anything. now zoom out of to view a man from space, when he dies he would have no effect on anything, somebody would take his place. Soom out of the galaxy, if earth ended, it would have no effect on the rest of the galaxy. Hell if you zoom out enough the destruction of our galaxy would mean nothing next to the other millions of galaxies in existence.

Yet you still fall in line, you still allow yourself to be controlled, you still try to be a " nice person" and have your morals when all of that means nothing. You yourself are saying everything that you are doing is meaningless.I find that sad.

My life means just as much as an ants, but that doesnt keep me from wanting to enjoy it.

Enjoying it means nothing if those experiences and memories just get erased when you die. If life is meaningless the experiences themselves are meaningless. You are giving a false sense of meaning to these actions to comfort yourself.

Nitro:

Rick, why do you believe in God?

If you' d been adopted and raised by an atheist family, do you think you' d still have ended up a Christian?

I believe in God because I feel there is a reason we are alive. I don' t believe life is meaningless. I believe life brings something greater. I can' t fathom that all we live in, this vast universe full of memories and experiences and changes just happens to be and that it' s just ticking away. I can' t comprehend life' s actions having no meaning. If it is all meaningless, then yes, God is just my way to cope with that, just like the rest of you use society, morality, and motions of living to cope with it yourself.

We can play the what if game all day but I was born into a religious family, I was raised religious, in college I stopped going to church (still believed in God mind you), when I moved home I started going again. That' s just how it worked out. I could have been adopted by an atheist family but I wasn' t. Everything happens for a reason. I' m just going through the motions and enjoying what time I have here in this life while still being a good person because when I die It will be something to look back and and be grateful for (or despise if I end up in eternal flames with a pitch fork up my ass).

Why should i be an asshole because nothing really matters?

I dont get why you use this as a point?

I dont mind adhering to man made rules, since it brings some order to the chaos.

I just dont believe in a old man with a big white beard

You' re psychotic.

From you, I don' t quite consider that an insult.

Why would you put your faith in a fuc.ker who just killed 10,000 people?

...Whuh?

I believe, believing in any kind of god makes you a weaker person.

Enligthenment comes when you let go of that need!

No offence meant to anyone.

How so? It' s not a physical dependence, what enlightenment do I need to gain, and how does that make me a better person? There' s nothing I can do now physically, that I can' t do as an atheist. It' s a conscious decision, and it' s mine to make. I' m not crippled by my faith whatsoever.

OK, so why not follow the earliest version? Wouldn' t that be the least currupt? Clearly the earliest dogmas are the ones that have been altered the least. If you can' t trust the ealiest version. Why would you trust anything afterwards that even you agree was man written?

Well, it was all man-written. Everything in the Bible was written by men, over the course of thousands of years ago, so, the earlier being the Old Testament. So, why am I not Jewish? Simple.

I like the idea of bacon and condoms.

The morality of the theory is the only point that can be a purely rational discussion with no need for empirical evidence. It' s the only area where we can have a complete discussion without loose ends. It also seems to be the area where Christians are least likely to talk about.

Ok. If you really want to, why not?

So, my first question, do you believe that any of the words of Jesus, not necessarily in their entirety, have some sort of value to a civilized society? There are plenty of atheists who, while not agreeing with his divinity, agree that Jesus existed, and wasn' t a liar, a nutjob, or a con-man. Are you one of them?

They have to, no politician would stand a chance without admitting to being a Christian with a family.

Stalin did alright for his time.

Their electability aside, my point was that Christianity doesn' t affiliate itself with one political belief. Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Fascists, even Communists, they all have Christian members.

Conservatives are more traditionally fundamentally Christian, but there are plenty of non-religious conservatives, and plenty of conservative Christians, who are really bad people. There can be correlation, without causation.

The only one a believe is Huckabee.

Huckabee is a tool.

Religion is just like a drug trade, except the other guy does not have his package to exchage. However, he promisses that when you die, you have a big package waiting for you, but only if you trust him and keep bringing him packages every Sunday.

You talk about the financial corruption present in religion. Let' s see some numbers. Show me some examples of metric assloads of money being embezzled through churches. Until then, it' s rhetoric, and nothing more.

I can show you figures from a local church, a Catholic church, no less, the denomination that is stereotypically described as dark shadowy men rolling in the benjamins, showing that millions of dollars this year were spent on feeding those who were down on their luck, without obligation. The people in the community paid no money, and were not required to go to church, or even to affiliate themselves with Christianity before receiving food and clothing from this church. I' ve got more evidence personally that churches do works of good, than of bad.

The purpose is to survive. That' s what a lifeform does. Just like a plant, a frog, a lion. It' s ***ing simple.

If our purpose in life is merely to survive, why do we have cognitive ability so much greater than the organisms around us? You can say that we require them to survive, but there are certain things we are able to do, that really have no bearing on survival? Playing the flute? Doing algebra? The ability to do both of those stems from a higher mental capacity not required in the basic predator/prey survival model.

If finches and apes are just barely beginning to use tools, (barely, in the sense of hundreds of thousands of years, in earth' s sense) and they have survived thousands of years coexisting with human beings, why aren' t we just as simple mentally?

How are you not a pussy by your own standards again? You' re afraid of an invisible man living in the clouds. You don' t even have the guts to get laid, because you think the invisible man wants you to get married first. lol

I would think you of all people would understand the benefits of abstinence. Do you think I (and I believe Rampage as well) follow these sort of rules without reason? No.

I can' t support a kid, and can' t afford to take that risk in my life. I wouldn' t put my girlfriend in that position, and I wouldn' t sleep around behind her back, regardless of if I were a Christian, so sex is off the list for me until I can support a kid. If I want to bring somebody into the world, I want to do it with a long-time partner, who I know will be there when the child is being raised.

Aren' t your parents separated Ghost? Don' t tell me that' s not hard as a kid, loving both of your parents, and knowing they at best, are distant with each other, at worst, despise each other. That' s not even counting the subject of kids who just don' t know who their father is, because daddy and mommy had a one-night-stand, and mommy got knocked up.

What if you' re just wrong. Do you think you' re wasting your life? Do you think god would want you to waste your life and not have any fun?

The same question can be turned around to you. What if you' re wrong. I don' t like scare-tactics evangelization. It doesn' t work, but do you ever consider that?

I can' t speak for Rampage, but I certainly don' t consider my life a waste right now, I mean, really. Your biggest argument in the last couple of months is that we' re not getting any. I don' t pity you. I think you enjoy life, and do what you want, but in my life, sex certainly isn' t my measure of happiness. What else can' t I do as a Christian, that I would do otherwise?

I pity people who have been born into religious families. Look at Eddie... he has to go to church every week... no choice in the matter until he' s whatever age, and then if he doesn' t go it' ll likely be frowned upon.

I couldn' t care less about being frowned upon. I love my family, but I don' t get along with any of them, short of my bat-shit insane grandparents, their son (my dad) and my brother. Everybody else believes I' ll be eternally damned for leaving the Catholic Church anyhow, I have nothing to prove to them, at this point, and the people who I do feel I have an obligation to prove something to couldn' t be more diverse. My grandparents are Christmas and Easter Methodists, my father is a libertarian Catholic, and my brother just doesn' t give two shits about religion at this point in his life.

The guy is already and adult as far as i' m concerned. When i was his age i had my own place. These concepts and ideals that they live by are completely alien to me.

If nothing else, I take you considering me as an adult a sincere compliment. It is alien to a lot of people, but that same idea works in reverse. The idea of parents letting their kids swear, or openly talk about sex in their house is odd to me, because I wasn' t raised that way (not that I have anything against sex discussions, or swearing, far from it). The idea of parents buying things for their kids, outside of the holidays is odd to me, because my family never worked that way. The idea of a family vacation? It' s weird to me, because if I' m going on a vacation, the point is to get away from my family. All of these are things that either you, or other forum members have made comment on about their lives, and it' s alien to me. Finding that odd, isn' t really all that odd to me (that wasn' t a pun, I just have no better way of wording it).

If our purpose in life is merely to survive, why do we have cognitive ability so much greater than the organisms around us? You can say that we require them to survive, but there are certain things we are able to do, that really have no bearing on survival? Playing the flute? Doing algebra? The ability to do both of those stems from a higher mental capacity not required in the basic predator/prey survival model.

first of all! what intrest is it of " god' s" that you learn to play the flute?

Its all physics and evolution.

Did " god" also create every other sentient living species in the universe?

first of all! what intrest is it of " god' s" that you learn to play the flute?

For entertainment, but that' s not the point I was trying to make. Why are we so much more advanced than every species on the planet, even primates, who we supposedly share a common ancestor with. What gave us that mental bump, and left them swinging from trees, and drinking their own urine for kicks?

For entertainment, but that' s not the point I was trying to make. Why are we so much more advanced than every species on the planet, even primates, who we supposedly share a common ancestor with. What gave us that mental bump, and left them swinging from trees, and drinking their own urine for kicks?

Well its survival of the fittest, one species, the sapiens were just a bit brighter than their counterparts, they mated, learned tools, and tools accelerate intelligence. So over a few million years we evolved into what we are no. Life is just a big coincidence, one that i dont mind the least :P though if it hadnt excisted i wouldnt have cared ofcourse ;)

ORIGINAL: Vx Chemical

Why should i be an asshole because nothing really matters?

I dont get why you use this as a point?

I dont mind adhering to man made rules, since it brings some order to the chaos.

I just dont believe in a old man with a big white beard

I' m not saying you should be an asshole (yet another label created by society). I' m just asking why you fall in line if it' s all for nothing. You are passing up just as much in life as I am. The order you speak of doesn' t even exist, trying to create order is coping.

I don' t believe in some old man with a white beard but really, even if I did, by your of view on life it shouldn' t matter to begin with because it' s all meaningless.

ORIGINAL: Rampage99

I' m not saying you should be an asshole (yet another label created by society). I' m just asking why you fall in line if it' s all for nothing. You are passing up just as much in life as I am. The order you speak of doesn' t even exist, trying to create order is coping.

It' s like i said, ...we' re all born into a form of servitude. Without money and food we' d die and our innate insticts push us to avoid that. There doesn' t have to be a reason for self preservation. We are, we exist. We don' t want to intentially cause ourselves pain or physical damage so in general we fall in line with " society" . We work for money and with it we buy the food, clothing, shelter etc that we require to survive. We rarely think about it on a concious level, ...it' s just the done thing because we (like you) are products of our environment. Some of us question it, but we don' t test it because there would be negative consequences.

ORIGINAL: Eddie_the_Hated

If nothing else, I take you considering me as an adult a sincere compliment.

ORIGINAL: Nitro

ORIGINAL: Rampage99

I' m not saying you should be an asshole (yet another label created by society). I' m just asking why you fall in line if it' s all for nothing. You are passing up just as much in life as I am. The order you speak of doesn' t even exist, trying to create order is coping.

It' s like i said, ...we' re all born into a form of servitude. Without money and food we' d die and our innate insticts push us to avoid that. There doesn' t have to be a reason for self preservation. We are, we exist. We don' t want to intentially cause ourselves pain or physical damage so in general we fall in line with " society" . We work for money and with it we buy the food, clothing, shelter etc that we require to survive. We rarely think about it on a concious level, ...it' s just the done thing because we (like you) are products of our environment. Some of us question it, but we don' t test it because there would be negative consequences.

It' s up to you if you want to follow that servitude. You don' t need money to survive. Your instincts don' t tell you to work, sit on a computer, buy games, buy clothing, pay taxes, watch tv, drive a car. I can go out in the woods and live off the land if I want with much less pain and worry than I currently do in society. Current society causes far more pain and suffering than living truly based on instinct and need ever would. Society brings on more struggle. I' d say 95% of what you work for an buy is not necessary to survive, you' re just doing what you are told. Society is about as far from natural as it gets.

And not to bring up the sex thing again but it was something I was thinking about the last time we debated the topic. You yourself said it' s the most natural thing in the world. Sex on the basic level is, the sex you describe is a skewed f*cked up version of sex. What is sex at its core? A means to reproduce and further the advancement of the species. So what' s this about not wanting to have kids? Wearing condoms, pulling out, and trying to keep yourself from reproduction isn' t natural at all. You are taking something that' s is natural and turning it into an empty shell. But hey, society is all for that.

Ok... i was gonna post some local news since i havent been in this thread yet buuuuut it seems this is about something else now..

Nah dude, post the local news. This thread has steered off course long enough.

I' d like to point out the part where you say I' m a pussy by my own standards. That' s completely incorrect. With my views there is a consequence. Heaven and hell. I have a reason to behave the way I do. I have a reason to follow a certain lifestyle. If you don' t believe in a God or such and you don' t think the ultimate consequence is hell you should have absolutely no fear of consequence.

Correct. See here' s the thing. I don' t have to fear anything to be good, I am good. Human beings are inherently good believe it or not. Think of a child. There are two ways you can raise a child and get him/her to listen to you. One you can use a reward/punish system. My parents did this, and I witnessed this with my youngest (half) brother who is now 9 years old. He had behavioural problems when he was younger. He' s a smart kid, but he used to cry and scream whenever he didn' t get what he wanted. My parents played tough and would send him to his room whenever he would get nasty. And it worked, he learned about the system. He behaved when there was the threat of punishment. Things didn' t work so well when someone else babysat him.

The other method which far more difficult to master, but it' s the correct way. I used to babysit him when he was 3-6 years old. I never gave him treats and I never punished him. I used the respect system. I respected him as a human being and he respected me. He wanted chocolate before going to bed like mom always gave him, I told him it wasn' t healthy but he could have an apple. He was four years old and he understood. When you have a legitimate reason you don' t need fear. We' re not dogs. I respect my environment because I know why it needs to be respected. I have consequences, the consequences are my actions. I don' t fool myself into thinking they' re important though. I just use logic and respect. That' s the only reason I need.

You also bring up what if I am wrong, what if I am " wasting my life" . How can I waste my life? If there is nothing after death you can' t possibly waste life. If you die and there is nothing what does life really mean? Nothing.

I didn' t expect you' d bring up a point to fuck me. But you just did, I' ll give you that one. I took a miss step and you caught me, I like how you' re paying attention.

Then you talk about a moral code. What the f*ck is morality when this race is doomed to begin with? It' s bullshit, that' s what it is. There is no place for it.

Well I agree that it' s not important. But what I have to say about morality is that you can' t make a set of rules that' s universal. Morality is a system designed to measure and promote productivity, for the ultimate goal of survival. My point is that true morality is subjective and not objective as religiuon would have you believe. You have to gauge each situation differently. The point of morality is to predict the consequeces, not to measure the actions as religion does. It' s not important to me personally. I only bring it up as a counter argument. I' m not living in a bubble. This shit doesn' t dominate my thoughts ever. You ask me what' s the point. The point is to avoid boredom. That' s all I' m doing now. I' m not trying to convert you and I' m sure you' re not trying to convert me. We' re doing the same thing, we' re just killing time. But it fucking works because we' re giving honest answers. It' s the kind of this you don' t talk about in person.

Pain and pleasure is another thing. Once again, and I will continue to drive this home, if death is finite those don' t matter because when you die it will be as though those feelings never happened in the first place. It reminds me of something my coach told me in track and cross country- " Suffering 50 seconds or hours whether it be a race or practice, that is nothing in the grand scheme of things so why not lay everything on the line?" That' s basically the same question I' m posing. For me that quote really hits hard, not just for running and working out but for life itself and the afterlife. What is the suffering of having to behave along the guidelines of the Catholic religion worth? If I' m right an, eternity in Heaven. If I' m wrong... absolutely nothing.

What you' re talking about is called " Pascal' s Gambit" .
The idea is that you ultimately have nothing to lose and everything to gain by following god. So it' s an argument agaisnt the value of an atheists certainty.

As an atheist I would counter this by saying this would be more effective on an agnostic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal' s_Wager

Saying you have that inner conflict is really what I' m getting at.

My inner conflict has nothing to do with religion. It' s a simple question of wheather or not I want to live knowing that it' s useless. It' s not much of a conflict actually. I' m just measuring the trouble with life vs. the trouble with suicide. I' m going to pick whichever is easiest.

I don' t have to fear anything to be good, I am good. Human beings are inherently good believe it or not. Think of a child.

Human beings are also inherently violent, war like, and territorial. It' s not just humans either. I was watching a show on the discovery channel about evolution and how apes have wars. It was very interesting. Fighting would break out over nothing but to show dominance. Humans are the same why.

I just use logic and respect. That' s the only reason I need.

But logic and respect means nothing in the end.

for the ultimate goal of survival.

But you already know survival is futile and meaningless.

My inner conflict has nothing to do with religion. It' s a simple question of wheather or not I want to live knowing that it' s useless. It' s not much of a conflict actually. I' m just measuring the trouble with life vs. the trouble with suicide. I' m going to pick whichever is easiest.

I' m not saying that inner conflict is religious at all. I' m just saying, there' s something that makes you even question what' s the worth of life. I mean really, you just said you' re going with whatever is the easiest. Death is about as easy as it gets. What' s easier than just pulling a trigger and never having to deal with pain, suffering, work, struggle, etc...? Still, you are here.

I actually like how this debate has kind of come to even ground. Agent, I actually feel you have much more reason in your view because if life is finite you can see it for what it is. Vx, not to point you out but your view when you talk about experiences and such, you aren' t truly representing your own view of a finite death. You are trying to give life a meaning through society and experiences as a religious person does with religion. " A rose by any other name is still a rose."

Really, if your views are correct, my religion isn' t doing anything to hinder me or anyone else. It' s just a way to cope and pass time. In the end it all means nothing if death is finite anyway so there' s really no argument.