No, Christians are fine with bastards. Some of the best Christians I know are bastards (waits for Ghost to finish the pun). It' s the adulterous parents it doesn' t fancy. Notice, the ten commandments say " thou shalt not commit adultery/covet thy neighbor' s wife" , instead of " thou shalt not have your daddy be the mailman/cable guy"

Yeah, according to christianity this chick is just doubling up on the sin. She committed adultery, now she' s lying to her son.

And the law agrees with her...that' s the retarded part.

The LA Times reports a huge story that much of the rest of the news media is all but completely ignoring. Yesterday there was a complete shutdown of all ports on the West Coast by the dockworkers union in protest of the ongoing war in Iraq.

Dockworkers take May Day off, idling all West Coast ports
Their union says the action is to protest the war in Iraq, but port operators and shippers say it' s an attempt to influence their contract.

By Louis Sahagun and Ronald D. White, Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
May 2, 2008

Thousands of dockworkers at 29 West Coast ports took the day off Thursday, effectively shutting down operations at the busy complexes in what the union called a protest of the war in Iraq but employers worried might be a prelude to labor unrest.

The stand-down at ports including Los Angeles and Long Beach -- which combined handle 40% of the imported goods arriving in the United States each year -- idled ships and cranes, stranded thousands of big rigs and halted movement of about 10,000 containers during the eight-hour day shift.

The show of force by the International Longshore and Warehouse Union, which ended as workers reported for the Thursday night shift at Southern California' s twin ports, came two months before its contract expires with the Pacific Maritime Assn., a group of cargo carriers, terminal operators and stevedore companies.

The action also, as one labor historian put it, added significant support for May Day, which has become the preeminent working-class and protest event of the year. The union may have taken a calculated risk that allowing its members to participate was worth potentially aggravating employers in the middle of contract negotiations.

" This union looks at itself as the vanguard of the working class on the West Coast, and I think there was a sense that they needed to participate in this event," said Nelson Lichtenstein, a UC Santa Barbara history professor and director of the school' s Center for the Study of Work, Labor and Democracy.

At the ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach on Thursday morning, however, there were no antiwar activities -- no protesters, no signs with antiwar sentiments and no indication of any large-scale opposition by dockworkers to U.S. policy in Iraq. The issue was discussed, union leaders said, during a private meeting of rank-and-file members at the ILWU Local 13 headquarters in Wilmington.

" We are supporting the troops and telling politicians in Washington that it' s time to end the war in Iraq," union President Bob McEllrath said in a news release.

Yeah, according to christianity this chick is just doubling up on the sin. She committed adultery, now she' s lying to her son.

And the law agrees with her...that' s the retarded part.

Christianity doesn' t care about individuals. These religions like any empire only care about ideals and the institutions that they enforce. They hook people with these so called ideals and use that to promote their own brand of oppression using unnecessary laws designed to have precedence over human rights. In this case, ' Marriage' is more important than the child or the father, because god said so.

No, Christians are fine with bastards. Some of the best Christians I know are bastards (waits for Ghost to finish the pun).

Torr?

Christianity doesn' t care about individuals.

Christianity is a belief, not an institution. It can' t have a concern, or lack thereof for individuals. If you want to give me an organization that doesn' t care about individuals, go right ahead, but I' m not debating on the behalf of all of Christianity. It doesn' t make sense.

These religions like any empire only care about ideals and the institutions that they enforce. They hook people with these so called ideals and use that to promote their own brand of oppression using unnecessary laws designed to have precedence over human rights.

Yes, because Christians, in general, decades ago, decided to establish laws that prevent a child' s biological father from seeing him, just to f.uck over the little guy.

Every time Christianity gets brought up, you make sweeping generalizations about how " Christianity" is a sect of millionaires and scumbags hellbent on ruining life for anybody who doesn' t go to church on Sunday. Where do you get your numbers... or rhetoric, as it stands?

In this case, ' Marriage' is more important than the child or the father, because god said so.

I don' t know where you' ve pulled that from. You' re welcome to show me a bible passage that would support a decision like this, because I' ve got plenty to the contrary.

You' re confined to thinking about 2008 Eddie. Look at the history of Christianity, and the how/why it was made. However, even in 2008 look at how Christianity influences politics in the US. Republican party. Did you see the debate question where republicans were asked if they believed in evolution? They didn' t know what to answer. That was very telling.

Christianity isn' t an institution? Pull your head out of your ass. I' m not saying an institution is inherently bad, but it is an institution.

They have churches to instill propaganda every week. They have schools to train priests, they have leaders, they collect Billions. Don' t kid yourself in thinking religion has anything to do with anything other than money. Just like everything else. My point is that they have no high ground. Which wouldn' t bother me if they stopped insisting they do. Theory does not excuse practice. In theory you could argue that Christianity is good, but in pracatice it has been a huge sumbling block for progress of science as well as human rights. Shit, I would argue that even the morality and theory of Christianity is wrong. That' s not even talking about so called facts that the bible recounts. Angels, miracles and a massive worldwide flood...

The pope always has something to say about laws that are made. Who do you think is the biggest opponent of gay marriage and abortion?

Don' t be a hypocrite and asribe to the ideals of an organization without expecting to defend all of their ideals and practices. At the very least you should have some sort of reasoning to explain you things you do like about Christianity. Especially when they claim to have the word of god. That means everything has to be absolutely correct. Otherwise you have accept that it' s all bullshit or some of god' s word was currupted or lost. Personally I fail to see how the second is possible. If god gave me the answers to life I would be inclined to write them down. If some of it is wrong, then how can you trust any of it? Faith is not an acceptable answer.

If you want to hide behind the word belief, fine. I' m not talking about something that is abstract and intangible. I' m talking about the real measurable consequences of a group pf people telling the world they have all the answers.

I think you' re confusing the words " Church" and " Christianity" . They are not the same thing.

You can' t have one without the other, so I fail to see your point.

Christianity is smply a set of beliefs. A person' s beliefs are individual.

The Church is an organization whose purpose, amongst others is to teach that set of beliefs.

My point is that christianity isn' t bound by the church, and not every person who calls themselves a christian supports every action of the church.

I understand the difference. Both the church and Christianity are completely full of shit.

ORIGINAL: Zoy

The LA Times reports a huge story that much of the rest of the news media is all but completely ignoring. Yesterday there was a complete shutdown of all ports on the West Coast by the dockworkers union in protest of the ongoing war in Iraq.

Dockworkers take May Day off, idling all West Coast ports
Their union says the action is to protest the war in Iraq, but port operators and shippers say it' s an attempt to influence their contract.

By Louis Sahagun and Ronald D. White, Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
May 2, 2008

Thousands of dockworkers at 29 West Coast ports took the day off Thursday, effectively shutting down operations at the busy complexes in what the union called a protest of the war in Iraq but employers worried might be a prelude to labor unrest.

The stand-down at ports including Los Angeles and Long Beach -- which combined handle 40% of the imported goods arriving in the United States each year -- idled ships and cranes, stranded thousands of big rigs and halted movement of about 10,000 containers during the eight-hour day shift.

The show of force by the International Longshore and Warehouse Union, which ended as workers reported for the Thursday night shift at Southern California' s twin ports, came two months before its contract expires with the Pacific Maritime Assn., a group of cargo carriers, terminal operators and stevedore companies.

The action also, as one labor historian put it, added significant support for May Day, which has become the preeminent working-class and protest event of the year. The union may have taken a calculated risk that allowing its members to participate was worth potentially aggravating employers in the middle of contract negotiations.

" This union looks at itself as the vanguard of the working class on the West Coast, and I think there was a sense that they needed to participate in this event," said Nelson Lichtenstein, a UC Santa Barbara history professor and director of the school' s Center for the Study of Work, Labor and Democracy.

At the ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach on Thursday morning, however, there were no antiwar activities -- no protesters, no signs with antiwar sentiments and no indication of any large-scale opposition by dockworkers to U.S. policy in Iraq. The issue was discussed, union leaders said, during a private meeting of rank-and-file members at the ILWU Local 13 headquarters in Wilmington.

" We are supporting the troops and telling politicians in Washington that it' s time to end the war in Iraq," union President Bob McEllrath said in a news release.

It' s a coverup!

look at how Christianity influences politics in the US. Republican party. Did you see the debate question where republicans were asked if they believed in evolution? They didn' t know what to answer. That was very telling.

You' re confusing Christianity with Neoconservativism. Clinton and Obama both admit to being Christian. Don' t get me started on Clinton, but while I disagree with Obama' s politics, I don' t have a thing against him on an ethical level.

They have churches to instill propaganda every week.

The purpose of propaganda is to spread an ideology, so, yes, it is propaganda. But, on that same note, every news channel you watch, every political party rally you see, every band you listen to with any sort of message is propaganda. The world influences you, and you have to chose which you choose to listen to.

Look at the history of Christianity, and the how/why it was made.

Ok, I' ve at least got as much knowledge of that as you do. Christians were persecuted for 300 years after the death of Jesus by the Romans. What did the early Christianities fathers have to gain? Say what you will about modern Christianity, that' s an entirely different can of worms, but if Christianity is the worlds biggest and oldest scam, why did they push it for 300 years, not only risking their economic and social wellbeing, but their lives?


The pope always has something to say about laws that are made. Who do you think is the biggest opponent of gay marriage and abortion?
Less than 35% of Christians are Roman Catholic, or Orthodox, those who consider the Pope the head of their church. And even less than that agree with every statement that he makes. The pope is a man, fundamentally flawed like the rest of us, and his words are just as fallible as the next.

While on the subject of doctrine, and human religious authority, and why I don' t like it. the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther. He separated from the Catholic church in part due to the corruption that infiltrated the system, and the greed that was controlling the church at the time. This lead to an entirely different sect of Christianity, Protestantism, and evangelical Christianity.

Even further removed from Protestant Christianity, which I still find heavily flawed, there are non-denominational Christians. These are people like me. I don' t take orders from people half-way around the world with as much money as they have followers. I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, and interpret it accordingly. That' s my choice, my faith, and is not directly influenced by some massive organization. Not every Christian reports to " the Church" on their belief system. A church for me is a place to worship with relatively like-minded individuals. It' s my local community of people, a meeting place, and nothing more.

Don' t kid yourself in thinking religion has anything to do with anything other than money.

How many millionaire devout Buddhists do you know? What about Capuchin Monks? Local preachers?

Shit, I would argue that even the morality and theory of Christianity is wrong.

You could do that, but I wouldn' t bother. I know why you' re an atheist, and I know why I' m a Christian. I see no point in debating our fundamental beliefs.

Especially when they claim to have the word of god. That means everything has to be absolutely correct. Otherwise you have accept that it' s all bullshit or some of god' s word was currupted or lost.

Of course some of it has been corrupted, and lost. The human element makes sure of that. My belief is that God is omnipotent, and that humans are flawed. If God gives his word to flawed people, the odds of somebody not altering the word to suit their ideology are next to impossible. Hell, look at the differences present day in Christianity. Look at all the different denominations. They' re all different interpretations, or in some cases, corruptions of the original word. A man' s natural desire is to take what is seen as right, and make it fit them, instead of altering himself to fit it.

My point is that christianity isn' t bound by the church, and not every person who calls themselves a christian supports every action of the church.

Thank you. That' s my point on a more concise level.

Did I cover everything? Some of the better questions get lost when we debate this many subtopics at once.

I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God

You' re psychotic.

Why would you put your faith in a fuc.ker who just killed 10,000 people?

I believe, believing in any kind of god makes you a weaker person.

There is no god purpose to us being here. The entropy of it all makes people want to believe in some greater purpose.

Enligthenment comes when you let go of that need!


Edit:

No offence meant to anyone.

ORIGINAL: Vx Chemical

I believe, believing in any kind of god makes you a weaker person.

There is no god purpose to us being here. The entropy of it all makes people want to believe in some greater purpose.

Enligthenment comes when you let go of that need!


Edit:

No offence meant to anyone.

If there is no God that also means there is nothing to live for. I don' t understand the point in living personally if there is no afterlife, God, higher being, or what have you. If you (you as a general term, not directed at you Vx) don' t believe there is any greater purpose why don' t you just kill yourself? Why live? why deal with all the bullshit that life carries along with it. All the pain, all the suffering, all the stress... why deal with it? Oh, because of all the good times? Because of family and friends? Or maybe you want to take the approach of bettering your species and making life better for future generations. F*ck that.

Why? If when people die and that' s it you you die the future generations will mean nothing. Everything you did in life will mean nothing. You can' t even technically waste your life because, hell, when you die life will be completely nonexistent for you. The life you know now will be as though it never happened. Oh wait, but there are people still alive right... so? They are going to die to. Humanity will completely die off at some point. Living on in people' s memory will mean nothing. Everyone will be forgotten. Everyone. Not a single thing anyone does will mean anything.

So why is suicide wrong? Why is rape wrong? Why is murder wrong? Why is there a problem with wars? Hate? Persecution? Why is there love? Friendship? Happiness? Right and wrong doesn' t mean shit. Good and bad is nonexistent. If everyone is going to die in the end none of it means shit. Harming someone else doesn' t mean crap because in the grand scheme of things they really don' t even exist. Who cares if they die early because of my action? Who cares if some little girl gets raped and murdered? Who cares if some guy that promotes peace gets shot? They will die eventually and be forgotten and not a single thing they do will be remembered or better anything.

If this is truly the case then existence itself shouldn' t even exist. I may be considered weak or foolish to believe in an afterlife or a god, but without that you' re just going through meaningless motions until existence ceases. So really my stupidity, or psychosis of believing in a God if there is no God means nothing and there' s really no reason for it to even be debated.

Edit:

Haha, I really didn' t want to get into another one of these debates. Meh, I' ll just leave it at that.

ORIGINAL: Rampage99

So why is suicide wrong? Why is rape wrong? Why is murder wrong? Why is there a problem with wars? Hate? Persecution? Why is there love? Friendship? Happiness? Right and wrong doesn' t mean shit. Good and bad is nonexistent. If everyone is going to die in the end none of it means shit. Harming someone else doesn' t mean crap because in the grand scheme of things they really don' t even exist. Who cares if they die early because of my action? Who cares if some little girl gets raped and murdered? Who cares if some guy that promotes peace gets shot? They will die eventually and be forgotten and not a single thing they do will be remembered or better anything.

If this is truly the case then existence itself shouldn' t even exist. I may be considered weak or foolish to believe in an afterlife or a god, but without that you' re just going through meaningless motions until existence ceases. So really my stupidity, or psychosis of believing in a God if there is no God means nothing and there' s really no reason for it to even be debated.

Humanity is a blip in the grand scheme of things. Just like the dinosaurs...

...oh wait, ...you aren' t one of those " evolution is bullshit" nutters are you?

Religion is as insane as Scientology.

I believe in evolution. I don' t see any reason not to. You can call religion as insane as Scientology all you want, that' s fine. I really couldn' t care less. Tell me this though - why do you bother living? I' m sure it' s fun to always have us religious people on the defensive so why don' t we turn the table and have you guys explain your beliefs? As I described in my last post if your views are correct and everything is just going to fade into nothingness eventually why do you bother following rules, why do you bother trying to make something of yourself, why don' t just go and do what you really want? Like do the crap you do in GTA? Why not jack that awesome sports car you see driving down the road? If you see some chick you really want to have sex with why not go bang her on the spot? What' s the worst that could happen? Dying? Ha, who gives a sh*t? You' re going to die and nothing you do is going to matter good or bad regardless of when it happens. Are you guys just pussies?

ORIGINAL: Rampage99

Tell me this though - why do you bother living? I' m sure it' s fun to always have us religious people on the defensive so why don' t we turn the table and have you guys explain your beliefs? As I described in my last post if your views are correct and everything is just going to fade into nothingness eventually why do you bother following rules, why do you bother trying to make something of yourself, why don' t just go and do what you really want? Like do the crap you do in GTA? Why not jack that awesome sports car you see driving down the road? If you see some chick you really want to have sex with why not go bang her on the spot? What' s the worst that could happen? Dying? Ha, who gives a sh*t? You' re going to die and nothing you do is going to matter good or bad regardless of when it happens. Are you guys just pussies?

Looks like you' re still on the defensive to me.

It' s nothing to do with fear. We' re not stupid so we don' t do stupid things. Heh, if i killed somebody i' d be risking imprisonment. That would suck, so i will do my best not to kill somebody. Nothing i do actually " matters" - but to my existence. I didn' t choose to be here, but i am, so why would i conciously harm my existence? (be it ending up in prison or actual physical harm)

You live, you die. That' s it.

Unfortunately we' re all born into servitude. We' re (generally) forced to conform with " society" and if we don' t we are penalized. But they' re man made rules and regulations and have nothing to do with any kind of higher being so i don' t quite understand what you' re asking.

So you are a pussy. You listen to other people and you just fall in line (don' t give me that " I' m an individual" bullshit). You obey these man made rules that aren' t even your own. I don' t understand how my question doesn' t make sense to you. It' s quite simply really. Why don' t you just do whatever it is you really want? Take a car. Bang some chick regardless of whether or not she wants to. Break whatever laws you feel like. You end up in prison? So? What does that matter? Why even go to prison, why not fight it. Kill the people that are trying to put you behind bars. Their lives are meaningless. If you die in the process who cares? You shouldn' t. Your existence means nothing. It' s just a microscopic blip in a universe that' s just ticking away to its own end. You shouldn' t fear death. If anything it' s a release from this world that you didn' t choose to come to.

But no. You' re conforming to " society" which in itself is an institution. It' s even a " higher being" if you think about it. It' s an invisible force that forms your lifestyle. It' s based around written and unwritten law and behaviors passed down generation to generation. How is that any different than religion? You' re a follower. You do what general society or select parts of society think are cool or necessary. It' s in the clothes you wear, the things you buy, the way you behave and hold yourself. You can' t even make the claim that it' s not costing you time or money because in fact society takes more time and money from you than religion ever will. School, work, taxes, capitalism, having to buy the latest and greatest products. Why do any of it? Because society tells you you have to. The force of society tells you it must be this way.

Hell, let' s pretend God isn' t real (or for you he just isn' t and you don' t even have to pretend). So I go and blow 1 hour a week at church. I toss $2 in the collection box. Now think about the time you spent in school and how the vast majority of the stuff you learned you forgot. Now let' s take what' s left over and how much of that will you never use. Now let' s look at higher education. How much are you spending on that? Probably a hell of a lot more than tossing a couple dollars in a collection basket weekly. Even if you don' t go on to higher education, let' s look at how much is spent on trendy stuff, things you don' t need, things you work hours to afford. Good God we are racking up a bill aren' t we?

And for what? You are blowing your life away to an entity where when your life is up that' s it. Game over. There is nothing. You just spent what insignificant time you had in this world being a follower only to be forgotten. You my friend are getting much more raped in this whole deal than I am. At least if there is a God and I am in fact right in my beliefs which I believe whole heartedly I am, I am dying for something. You are a puppet doing all the same things you resent so much about religion and your finale is loosing complete existence. Not to sound arrogant but I pity you.

Of course some of it has been corrupted, and lost. The human element makes sure of that. My belief is that God is omnipotent, and that humans are flawed. If God gives his word to flawed people, the odds of somebody not altering the word to suit their ideology are next to impossible. Hell, look at the differences present day in Christianity. Look at all the different denominations. They' re all different interpretations, or in some cases, corruptions of the original word. A man' s natural desire is to take what is seen as right, and make it fit them, instead of altering himself to fit it.

OK, so why not follow the earliest version? Wouldn' t that be the least currupt? Clearly the earliest dogmas are the ones that have been altered the least. If you can' t trust the ealiest version. Why would you trust anything afterwards that even you agree was man written?

You could do that, but I wouldn' t bother. I know why you' re an atheist, and I know why I' m a Christian. I see no point in debating our fundamental beliefs.

The morality of the theory is the only point that can be a purely rational discussion with no need for empirical evidence. It' s the only area where we can have a complete discussion without loose ends. It also seems to be the area where Christians are least likely to talk about. One tactic I see alot is claiming that humanity is too simple to understand god' s intentions, or saying the bible is flawed. Anything they don' t like they assume it' s a mistake, the things they do liek they give absolute authority to.

Clinton and Obama both admit to being Christian.

They have to, no politician would stand a chance without admitting to being a Christian with a family. Very few politicians are believers, they have to promote christian values to impress the voters who are largely christian in the US. The only one a believe is Huckabee.

My point is that christianity isn' t bound by the church, and not every person who calls themselves a christian supports every action of the church.

Do you want a cookie? Why does that matter? I never said all christians were the same. We' d be in deep deep shit if that was the case. It would be the end of the human ***ing race. I' m talking about the organization running the show and holding a lot of power. I' m also talking about the basic concepts that all christians follow. If you don' t agree with Christianity then stop calling yourself a christian.

The idea of a supreme being, the idea of objective morality, the idea of being rewarded for unquestioned obedience after you die, does not sound devine to me. If there was a supreme being, it wouldn' t give a shit aobut us. Like Majik said we' re nothing. If life was a movie we' d be caught between two frames, no one would ever see us. God wouldn' t be a petty maniac either. Especially if he' s omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent. Looking around, I know he' s not these three things. Haven' t you ever had a pimple on your ass? It sounds like a bullshit story used to control primitive minds not capable of independant thought. It was the Clergy who collected the taxes, they were here before the Kings. Do you think they had good social programs? That' s what I meant when I said it was all about money. Today we' re seeing the fallout of religion.

But lets look at the idea of an afterlife, which is repulsive to say the least. Lets compare the proposal of religion to modern life.

The idea that Cristianity brings is that you have to adhear to a set of rules and beliefs in order to gain god' s favor and thus gain immortality in paradise.
-***, that' s everything I wanted to hear. What do I have to do?
A lifetime of obedience and self restraint.
-Uhhh. Where does Paradise fit in?
After you die.
-*** off!

Compare Christianity to a drug deal or any deal for that matter.

If you' re grow or traffic drugs, part of your job is to sell your goods. Its the most dangerous part of the job because no one trusts anyone. On a good day both sides get what they want and everyone goes home safe. On a bad day someone dies. The package is the carrot, and death is the stick.

Imagine the exchange.

One guy brings a package (the money) and the other guy brings a package (the drugs). Both parties know their own responsibility and never would anyone show up for an exchange without fulfilling their end of the bargain unless their intention was to kill the other guy.

Religion is just like a drug trade, except the other guy does not have his package to exchage. However, he promisses that when you die, you have a big package waiting for you, but only if you trust him and keep bringing him packages every Sunday.

If there is no God that also means there is nothing to live for. I don' t understand the point in living personally if there is no afterlife,

The purpose is to survive. That' s what a lifeform does. Just like a plant, a frog, a lion. It' s ***ing simple. In no point in our evolution from reptiles to apes to humans did we gain some sort of special status where we deserve a god or a higher purpose. Our function is the same as it is for any other living organism, simply to survive. Which is a useless goal when we' re going to die anyways. Tough shit eh? No one said we have to like it.

So you are a pussy. You listen to other people and you just fall in line (don' t give me that " I' m an individual" bullshit).

How are you not a pussy by your own standards again? You' re afraid of an invisible man living in the clouds. You don' t even have the guts to get laid, because you think the invisible man wants you to get married first. lol You' re a nice guy and everything. I' m not trying to piss you off, but try to think outside the box for a second. What if you' re just wrong. Do you think you' re wasting your life? Do you think god would want you to waste your life and not have any fun?

Just because we' re don' t fear death, doesn' t mean we' re malicious. That doesn' t mean I don' t have a moral code. My personal philosophy is to get by on the bare minimum. I don' t have the desire to do anything crazy because I don' t want to put myself in an uncomfortable position. I still feel pain and pleasure. I don' t really have much desire to excel at anything though.

But I have this inner conflict. The other side is saying, I should just protest life and just piss it all away. Not because it would make a difference, but because that would be my way of representing myself. If you can' t really accomplish anything in life that lasts then why not go out in a bang like you were saying Rampage?

Should I act based on my desire to be lazy and do as little as possible or my desire to end it soon in a bang?

I' m getting ready to join the forces during wartime. If I do infact go through with my plans you' ll know which direction I took.