After a recent discussion with Agent, I thought it' d be a good time to talk about upcoming graphics cards from ATI/nVidia (R7xx/GT200). Both are due out within the next month or so. All is still speculation.

It' s actually quite unusual to have so little information about the cards when they' re both so close to release, but there are tidbits of information around that should give us a general idea of what they' re made of. I mainly refer to the high end parts in this post.

ATI RV770 (4000 series)



The R600 series from ATI was a flop. It was fundamentally crippled in a number of ways. R700 is an extension of R600 but looks to solve a couple of grievous problems such as doubling the amount of TMU' s that R600 had, one of the reasons it performed so poorly. You may look at those specs and think RV770 is bandwidth starved, with only a 256 bit interface, but this will be countered by GDDR5 RAM which runs at very high frequencies. Another rumor is that their X2 cards have a unified memory approach, allowing both GPU' s to access any amount of the 1GB of memory. Not only does this save manufacturing costs, it also allows for some performance gains if implemented correctly. Also a new is the asynchronous shader/core speeds that it has. Much like what nVidia did with the G80, the RV770 will run its shaders at a speed faster than the core.

An interesting thing is that ATI looks to be going for a power saving approach. I am grateful for this as graphics cards are fast becoming bloated power hogs. It' s about time they took a page from the CPU world and adopted some efficiency. Only consuming 10W of power at idle is impressive. 25W for dual.

Another interesting tidbit is the possibility that in reality, RV770 has 800 SP' s, but 320 of those are devoted to physics computation (hence leaving 480 real shaders). This story surfaced only recently and may be bogus. But it does make sense considering Intel has Havok, and nVidia has PhysX. ATI probably does not want to get left out.

Finally, the most attractive thing about RV770 is the price, most recent rumours suggesting their high end single chip solution going for just over $200 US at launch and probably dropping below that soon after. So as far as bang for buck, RV770 looks to be impressive.

nVidia GTX 200



Even less is known about the GTX 200 but this list that surfaced recently looks realistic enough. Again, the GTX 200 is an extension of the G80 architecture. First off, we can see nVidia is sticking with GDDR3 memory, but countering bandwidth problems by having a 512 bit interface. This is pretty much the exact opposite of what ATI is doing and should end up with comparable results. It also has PhysX support, undoubtedly from their acquisition of Ageia. CUDA support is also there.

nVidia has in all likelihood gone with a big monolithic design for their high end stuff, rather than look at multiple chips like AMD. This is probably the last time that they' ll be able to do this, as graphics cards these days consume too much power. Much like the Pentium 4, you can only go so far on raw clockspeed and brute force.

Another interesting thing is that the GTX 200 doesn' t seem to support DX 10.1. Now this isn' t a huge issue but it suggests a limitation with the overall architecture with regards to implementing it. It remains to be seen whether DX 10.1 holds any real merit.

Other than that, not much else. All of this is still speculation and could change. I think it' ll be pretty close to what' s here. nVidia will probably have the performance lead but it will come at a cost. ATI will be better at multiple GPU' s. Overall, I' m kind of leaning toward getting an ATI card this next time round. Being incredibly cheap even for their high end parts and the energy saving features really make it stand out more. If I can get a couple of 4870' s cards for a similar price as a single GTX 280, then I' ll definitely consider taking the plunge into Crossfire.

I think I' m going to build a new computer around the time SC2 comes out. Obviously not because my current computer won' t be able to handle it maxed out. It will be because I want to have a second computer that can play it. I' m going to go with a configuration that will support 4 or more monitors. So I' m gonna have need 2 PCI Express slots. I can' t stand using ATI cards anymore so I' ll probably be going with NVidia. Not really sure how much I want to spend yet either. If they come out with a new quadro that owns for gaming again I might consider going for that if the price isn' t too insane, then slap in my old ATI 1900XT 512mb along with it. I don' t think any games support 4 monitors anyways. And if StarCraft 2 did I think a 1900 would be able to handle it.

But I don' t think I want to spend much more than $1000 on graphics cards so I' m going to wait for the the right time.

Whilst the hardware technology is coming forward in leaps and bounds, the software to utilise these graphical behemoths, is some what lacking. Graphics cards are being updated monthly if not weekly as in either ATi or Nvidia show off their next big thing in the world of Graphics cards, however what is the point of having something that can show infinate numbers of polygons, tetragons and shading, when there is no software that requires this power. Are you telling me that Crysis will look any better because you have a $1000 graphics card? No because the game is the game, ok you might get a slight improvement but nothing that would warrant a $1000 graphics card. It' s the same with anything new that comes out game wise unless the code has been utilised to use this technology then personally I don' t see the point unless it' s just have bragging rights.

I certainly would not recommend spending $1000 on graphics cards. $200-400 is perfectly fine though.

I generally don' t upgrade my graphics card too often either. Once every couple of years usually. And my 8800GT still has a lot of life left in it, so I' m not going to be upgrading this year unless I really find it necessary. Most people are the same. If they' re upgrading from something made in 2005, or making a new PC, then these new cards do give a very significant boost to performance.

The current batch of graphics cards have been around for much longer than usual. The G80 came out in 2006 and everything subsequent from that has been only a slight modification. Sure, they try to re-release things and put a new name on them, but they' re actually the same thing.

Ok, so will the GTX 280 be PCI Express 1.0 compatible? I know some 9800 cards aren' t and i' m still running an nForce 680i. Or will i have to buy a 780i?

Also, what kind of performance increase would the 280 yield over my 8800 Ultra?

Not sure where you heard that. 9xxx cards are all compatible with PCI Express 1.0. I' m pretty sure that problem was from much earlier on and only affected VIA chipsets. There are lots of people running 680i' s and 9800GTX' s.

All upcoming cards would be compatible with all versions of PCI express.

As for the GTX 280 over the 8800 Ultra? I have no idea. We won' t know until they' ve been benchmarked.

Bad news for ATI:

-I heard a rumour that the HD 4870s will not come with 1GB standard, but manufacturers will have the option of offering the cards with a gig. ATI is aiming at cutting cost as they know a single GTX 280 will beat a HD 4870.

-The 4870X2 is only expected to arrive in September.

Good news for ATI:

-ATI will close the gap between themselves and Nvidia. This time they truely will have a superior price/performance.

-As Unlucky mentioned Crossfire works far better than SLI, and because I believe performance will be close enough between 4*** and 2**, ATI will take the crown for multiple videocards, especially if you consider the HD 4870X2.

-ATI is improving the interconnect for the 4870X2, so performance will scale better than the 3870X2.

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Good news for Nvidia:

-Nvidia is building on a healthy lead for single gpu.

-Nvidia is focusing on where it needs more muscle, in the shaders.

Bad news:

-Initial next gen cards will only ship on a 65nm proccess with 55nm chips shipping later. ATi will have 55nm right out of the gate. The result will be lower clock speeds and higher power consumption for early GTX280s.


EDIT: Yeah if ATI can pull off it' s idle under 25 watts that would be pretty amazing.

Another interesting tidbit is the possibility that in reality, RV770 has 800 SP' s, but 320 of those are devoted to physics computation (hence leaving 480 real shaders).

I highly doubt this. This is based off an earlier rumour where one of the gosip sites reported the HD 4870 would have 800 shaders based on bad math. I forget exactly how they made the mistake. Looking at the transistor count, 666 million (3870) to about 800-900 million (4870), there' s no way they can hide an extra 320 shaders for physics when the jump to next gen for shaders is 320->480 and 16-> 32 for TMUs, ROPS staying the same at 16. They will however enable GPGPU (General Purpose Graphics Processing Units) like Nvidia.

I almost got a 9800 GX2 today but will hold on for the GTX 280, just 1 more month...

And alijay you' re an idiot, videocards aren' t coming out nearly fast enough. I' ve had an 8800GTX for nearly 2 years simply because nothing else has been worth upgrading to.

Since 2006 the 8800GTX has been the top card, I don' t even acknowledge the existence of the 8800 Ultra as its basically an overpriced OC' d GTX with hardly any performance gain.

I expect to be able to get considerable upgrades every 6-12 months, not every 2 years.

And ATI has become garbage of late, how can anyone even consider buying such underpowered videocards? If you' re poor, I guess.

Or someone that doesn' t have an SLI motherboard. If 4870 crossfire beats a single GTX 280, that' s what I' m getting. I imagine in most casses 4870 crossfire will beat a GTX 280. If I do go for the GTX 280, I' m waiting for 55nm and overclocked memory. Then again I may just wait until early 2009 for a significant leap.

Hey Emofag buddy, your momma let you back on the internet again, great to see you!!!!

ORIGINAL: Agent Ghost

Or someone that doesn' t have an SLI motherboard. If 4870 crossfire beats a single GTX 280, that' s what I' m getting. I imagine in most casses 4870 crossfire will beat a GTX 280. If I do go for the GTX 280, I' m waiting for 55nm and overclocked memory. Then again I may just wait until early 2009 for a significant leap.

I doubt two 4870s will beat 1 GTX280

And alijay - you' re an idiot, typical response because I owned you as usual, you dont know what you' re talking about.

ORIGINAL: Agent Ghost

Or someone that doesn' t have an SLI motherboard. If 4870 crossfire beats a single GTX 280, that' s what I' m getting. I imagine in most casses 4870 crossfire will beat a GTX 280. If I do go for the GTX 280, I' m waiting for 55nm and overclocked memory. Then again I may just wait until early 2009 for a significant leap.

I think 8800 Ultra to 9800 GX2 is already a significant leap. But not quite the generational leap I expected.

I mean going from a 7900 to an 8800 was Huuuuuuge, going from ATI' s 9800 Pro to X850' s was also huge, thats the kind of upgrade I expect to get from the 8800 to 280.

Although I am wary of Nvidia' s huge ass videocards, the size/noise/heat generation has gotten pretty ridiculous, it almost feels like they are cheating by creating videocard monstrosities. I would get two ATI cards if they are small and neat and do infact outperform a single 280.

But then there' s the driver issues, I don' t like ATI' s driver support, it took forever for them to support so many standard widescreen resolutions, the reason I switched from ATI to Nvidia was because back in the x800 series days there was no support for the type of monitor I had.

A 4870 should slightly outperform a 3870X2 as it has just about the same raw performance on paper, everything is the same minus the innefficiency of dual GPU cards. So two 4870s should see at least the same performance over two HD 3870X2 in Crossfire.

I talked about the numbers before, these ones are the most current.

HD 3870
SP: 320*2@775=496 Gflops
TMUs: 16@775= 12.4
ROPs: 16@775=12.4

HD 4870
SP: 480*2@1050=1008 Gflops
TMUs: 32@850=27.2
ROPs: 16@850=13.6
1GB@ 128-140GBps bandwidth

HD 4870 Crossfire
SP: 2016 Gflops
TMUs: 54.4
ROPs: 27.2
---------------------------------------

9800GTX
SP: 128*3@ 1688=648 Gflops
TMUs: 64@675=43.2
ROPs: 16@675=10.8

GTX 280
SP: 240*3@1500=1080
TMUs: 80@625=50
ROPs: 32@625=20
1GB@ 128-140GBps bandwidth


Note:

TMU and ROP is measured in billions of texels/pixels per second respectively. 3870 performs like shit because it has piss poor texel performance. Nvidia still has the edge here with single GPUs, but if you' re comparing two 4870s vs. one GTX 280, ATI eliminate this dissadvantage entirely. Everything is pretty much even except ATI has double the shading performance in this case. I' d be really surprised if one GTX 280 beats two HD 4870s in any benchmark, maybe if it has more bandwidth.

The clock speeds are based on speculation, I' m more certain about the HD 4870 than the GTX 280, but I doubt the retail product will be much different. A 4870 will be a dual slot solution, the 4850 will be a single slot.

ORIGINAL: Agent Ghost
3870 performs like shit because it has piss poor texel performance.

I think you made that word up.

I' ve heard it before. Basically, what agent is saying is the reason why the R600 had crappy performance was because of it' s low TMU to Shader ratio. R600 has a massive amount of shader power, and it looks great on the surface. But low TMU' s means it can' t address many textures at any one time, leaving most of that shader power under-utilized. Kind of like having a beastly car engine that can rate 600kW of power but only actually transfer 150kW to the wheels.

By doubling the amount of TMU' s on R700, it should theoretically lead to a 100% improvement in that area.

ORIGINAL = emofag

Since 2006 the 8800GTX has been the top card, I don' t even acknowledge the existence of the 8800 Ultra as its basically an overpriced OC' d GTX with hardly any performance gain.

Agreed. Actually I thought the 9xxx series was a step backward for Nvidia. It' s bandwidth crippled and in most cases the 8800 will beat the 9800 - especially in higher resolutions or AA. They had to cut costs in order to put the pressure on ATI' s low cost cards, despite having a superior architecture.

ORIGINAL: Agent Ghost

A 4870 should slightly outperform a 3870X2 as it has just about the same raw performance on paper, everything is the same minus the innefficiency of dual GPU cards. So two 4870s should see at least the same performance over two HD 3870X2 in Crossfire.

I talked about the numbers before, these ones are the most current.

HD 3870
SP: 320*2@775=496 Gflops
TMUs: 16@775= 12.4
ROPs: 16@775=12.4

HD 4870
SP: 480*2@1050=1008 Gflops
TMUs: 32@850=27.2
ROPs: 16@850=13.6
1GB@ 128-140GBps bandwidth

HD 4870 Crossfire
SP: 2016 Gflops
TMUs: 54.4
ROPs: 27.2
---------------------------------------

9800GTX
SP: 128*3@ 1688=648 Gflops
TMUs: 64@675=43.2
ROPs: 16@675=10.8

GTX 280
SP: 240*3@1500=1080
TMUs: 80@625=50
ROPs: 32@625=20
1GB@ 128-140GBps bandwidth


Note:

TMU and ROP is measured in billions of texels/pixels per second respectively. 3870 performs like shit because it has piss poor texel performance. Nvidia still has the edge here with single GPUs, but if you' re comparing two 4870s vs. one GTX 280, ATI eliminate this dissadvantage entirely. Everything is pretty much even except ATI has double the shading performance in this case. I' d be really surprised if one GTX 280 beats two HD 4870s in any benchmark, maybe if it has more bandwidth.

The clock speeds are based on speculation, I' m more certain about the HD 4870 than the GTX 280, but I doubt the retail product will be much different. A 4870 will be a dual slot solution, the 4850 will be a single slot.

I' m still weary of dual slot solutions, the cards just don' t add up.

Single slot performance is 1 = 1
Dual Slot is 0.5 + 0.5 = 0.75

I agree. It isn' t very efficient. The only reason I would get 2 is so I can use 4 screens at once.

In fairness ATI is much more efficient than Nvidia when it comes to multi card solutions.

0.5 + 0.5 = 0.75

My 1900XTX has aged better than I expected tbh, and has served me well in all but Crysis so far. Runs the GRID demo nicely.

I can see myself upgrading to one of these when the price comes down though, maybe in a year or so, maybe get a couple to link up. Unless a super efficient card comes out by then which is worth the extra cash.

The last ATi card i had was a 9800XT in what, 2003!? Since then i' ve only had NVIDIA cards. As soon as something comes along that destroys my 8800 ULTRA i' ll buy it, but i want to stay away from SLI and CrossFire as much as possible - only because i' m happy to upgrade regulary.