Evolution has too many holes, and has never been observed, moron.

So tell me, when the first land animals crawled out of the water did they develop lungs in the water and drown or did they breathe on land with their gills.

I understand evolution, and its flaws. Same with most major religions, I understand the uses and the flaws. Youre no better than any other religious zealot.

And no, emo, Im not hispanic. Im Irish and Italian. And yes the Europeans raped and pillaged the natives in the 2 Americas. Shit happens, thats what you get for not advancing in technology and warring like retarded barbarians. Its the same situation most of Africa is still in now, too busy fighting to advance.

I do not practice Christianity, or any religion for that matter. But Im also not stupid enough to blindly believe a flawed scientific theory that has so many holes in it. Another good example is now scientists are saying Neandertals were actually smarter than us, but we somehow beat them out because we could use our thumbs better. WTF? They were larger, stronger, and supposedly smarter. That alone disproves evolution. Also most of the science behind evolution is assumed. Such as how Neandertals lived and what they were capable of. For all they fucking know the supposed Neandertal bones they found were nothing more than a big fucking Swede with an odd shaped scull.

Science should be based on observation and proof. Not assumption and theories. We have never seen a human evolve. In fact, if natural selection applied to humans all the retards wouldve died out and people wouldnt be born with things such as Down Syndrome or Cerebal Paulsy.

Just for the record cerebral palsy isn't an inherited condition, its usually caused by acquired brain damage around birth, and most of the time only leads to motor dysfunction not cognitive (mental retardation).

Downs syndrome, although causing variable cognitive impairment, isn't strictly an inherited disorder either.  Its actually a failure of the system by which our reproductive cells replicate.  So even if a Down's kid didn't survive through lack of fitness, it could still happen to any fitter humans' kid later down the line.

Just thought I'd clear that up. I feel like Stephen Fry on QI now. [:D}


....
In fact its interesting that there are lot of inherited conditions (where fully affected parents pass on a condition) that have onset of symptoms later in life, possibly after reproductive age, like Huntington's disease, and that many childhood inherited diseases are passed on by carriers, meaning your parents can be perfectly fit and healthy, and just either be a bad combo of two carriers or have a rare female linked inheritance where mums pass on their carrier trait to their sons who by virtue of being male go on to develop the disease in full (eg muscular dystrophy). 

Unless you screened everyone in the world genetically and told the ones that cropped up positive for being certain disease carriers that they couldn't have kids, the diseases would go on.  But that would be kind of unethical, bordering on what Hitler was up to. :s
 

Evolution has too many holes, and has never been observed, moron.

What the hell are you talking about?  Of course it has been observed.  We have bacteria that feeds exclusively on nylon.  A synthetic material that is only about 70 years old.  The evidence is astounding.  Spend 30 minutes doing research online and you'll find what you need.  Try avoiding religious souces which are threatened by real science and you'll find the truth.  Are you telling me that god added this bacteria recently just to fuck with us?  Ok so we haven't seen drastic changes.  We've only had video for a hundred years or so.  Large changes take hundred of thousands of years.  We have fossils and DNA evidence.  Saying that we don't have evidence for evolution is like saying that we don't have proof that you changed to a 200 pound adult from a 8 pound baby.  At no time has anyone watched you change from a baby to an adult but you do have photographs of yourself in the intermidiate.

Tracing life back through evolution reveals the puzzle of all life.  Naturally we don't have a complete picture and we never will.  Just like we don't have a picture of you for every second in your life, it's just not possible. We're still discovering new peices everyday but we do know what the picture looks like.  No serious biologist is debating the legitimacy of evolution.  Some finer points are being argued but the concept itself is a complete theory.  A theory in science does not mean a guess.  A theory is based on facts and comes with an EXPLANATION.  The theory of gravity explains gravity, the theory of the Atom exaplains atomic energy, the theory of electromagnatism explains electromagnatism. 

So tell me, when the first land animals crawled out of the water did they develop lungs in the water and drown or did they breathe on land with their gills.

A transitional species
http://www.uchospitals.edu/news/2008/20081015-tiktaalik.aspx

You know that we have Mammals currently living in the water right?  We also have amphibians that can breath in the water and an land.

Think about it.

     

Evolution would require the need for something. Much like the problem presented by the eye. Why would nerve endings develop without the need to attach to something, and why would it develop the actual eyeball without anything to attach it to? Thats circular logic. Much like your claims to fossil records. To determine how old a fossil is they say how old the soil around it is, to determine how old the soil is they go by the fossils they find in it. Thats circular logic. Im not saying evolution didnt happen, but my belief is that there was some driving factor. Intelligent design, if you will.

Evolution is put into question by so many useless species, and useless aspects of other species. Many of the upper brain functions of humans for example, are actually a hinderance when looked at from a survival standpoint. Look at useless creatures like the Ostrich. Why didnt evolution kill off a useless, flightless bird?

Im not saying I believe in a divine power, a deity, or aliens or anything like that. Im saying that there must have been something driving this process. 1 day a fish didnt decide it needed lungs, with no concept of lungs, and then grow them. 1 day an animal(term used loosley) didnt just decide it needed nerve endings for an eye that didnt exist.


And to the mammals that live in water? If anything theyre counter-intuitive to evolution. The need to surface for air? Why didnt they evolve with lungs?

Well i'm just glad we don't use our appendix anymore... because mine tried to kill me and i had to have it removed.

woah that's rough, recover well dude

And to the mammals that live in water? If anything theyre counter-intuitive to evolution. The need to surface for air? Why didnt they evolve with lungs?

They can't chose how they evolved.  They're managed to survive fine in the water.

Evolution would require the need for something.

Evolution doesn't work this fast, drastic changes takes time.  The eye didn't come in one generation.  The so called need is always the same.  Life will by it's very nature will steer itself to be more efficient for procreation/survival.  When an environment changes traits that are beneficial for survival are different. 

I've heard people ask that if we're so perfect how could this be chance?  It really isn't chance, and we're hardly perfect.  There are so many things with the human body that are far from ideal.  Evolution is guess and check, The right answer is dictated by the environment. 

As for the eye, even some single celled organisms have light receptors.  That's the origin of the eye. 

Well i'm just glad we don't use our appendix anymore... because mine tried to kill me and i had to have it removed.

Recently?

No, it was a few years ago (but thanks anyway loco)...

Point is, the human body has evolved to the point where it has become useless. Anybody who doesn't take evolution seriously is just plain stupid.

Like the coccyx bone at the end of your spine - remnant of a tail?

Just to ask the question - why can't evolution and religion go hand in hand?

And maybe I know what Dan is trying to say - is why a fish would need to even part develop lungs, and why this would be an advantage to then advance through natural selection.  How a random mutation could send a fish on a path to develop lungs in water, unless for thousands of years, fish were hopelessly trying/needing to get onto land, and only those who had randomly mutated the ability had survived.

In my mind, and I dont know if theres a theory like this, but surely it would've been the other way round.  Theres more water than land, and maybe land mammals needed to catch fish to survive, then those that had adapted to be better swimmers would evolve into amphibians and large sea predators eg sharks, crocks etc.

I think evolution has a lot of uanswered questions, but in theory is perfectly valid, plus we do see evidence of the small scale process happening everyday. 

But just because I believe in evolution, and science, and the determinism you speak of Agent, in my mind it doesn't preclude devine direction outside of all that.

I was going to respond to something else in your last post but then I saw this.  WTF!?  I didn't know they still made people like you, even Eddie understands evolution.

I won't pretend to even come close to understanding evolution. My personal life philosophy is one of compassion, but my outlook on the world is very much based on natural selection, so the two have conflicted in the past. My belief is that there is little in my religious texts that conflicts with science, when properly traced and studied in it's original language interpretation (something many people fail to recognize). I think I'm living proof, if nothing else, that logic and religion can coexist without setting people on fire, or burning down buildings.

As for this entire thread, this wasn't a knock on Islam. I think there is enormous merit in reading and understanding the original Islamic teachings, however, I find that the further into the Qur'an I read, the more violent and extreme the various teachings become. Sadly, some Muslims feel that (due to the abrogative nature of the Qur'an) the latter should proceed the former in authority, which is a shame, because the majority of Muslims I know, associate and care deeply about are all wonderful people who wouldn't practice the majority of the actions found in the Qur'an, even if they state that their holy book is without flaw.

Anyway, this was originally meant to be my commentary on the state of Somalia. Those who do their homework will find that  the oppressive theocracy is the result of almost two decades of more secular sociopolitical oppression, not the other way around. Look at it fifteen years ago, with our botched job in the region. Ten years, and a few international terrorists later, we have our current situation. None of the despots in question were particularly pious Muslims, but radical Islam is a good enough scapegoat to subjugate the poor for the cause of "righteous" political action, and so it stuck.

Just to ask the question - why can't evolution and religion go hand in hand?

Religion, at least Christianity keeps rejecting evolution.  It happens less and less today.  Evolution sort of goes against the idea that the Earth is 6000 years old.  As shocking as that sounds people still support this idea.  Many people still believe that humans roamed the Earth with dinosaurs and that the Universe was made in 6 days.  When people executed individuals for trying to convince people the Earth did not stand on four pillars but was round, nor is the Earth stationary.  I certainly don't blame god, I don't blame theism.  I blame Christianity and religion and of course the individuals.  You might say that people from that era were ignorant.  Then why are we following their ideas?  Today we have a rigorous scientific process to test new theories.  In my view nothing that demands to be taken as fact is exempt from this process.  If the ideas can't stand up to peer review and testing or doesn't at least have logic reason then it doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.  The morality that religion preaches is objective as opposed to subjective.  You can't measure morality with the action, you have to consider the consequences.  Religion provides all these rules it demands that people follow without considering the outcome.  Yeah as if I'm going to follow a broken sense of morality just to be rewarded by access to a place that does not exist.  First of all morality isn't morality if it involves a personal reward.  Compassion isn't exclusive to religion.

I make a distinction between religion and theism.  Theoretically you can have god and evolution but Christian docrtine does not support evolution.  I fully expect the bible to go through another major revision.  I also fully expect Christians to continue to call it the words of god.  At least it will include evolution.

The analogy I would use is weed.  I consider theism to be a drug, if god makes you happy then fine.  I don't have a big problem with people worshipping god.  My beef is with organized religion.  Religion is one method of obtaining this drug.  I like to smoke the occasional J but I won't buy it from a gang because then I'd be partially supporting all the atrocities that they commit, I'd be funding their crimes.  Instead I get it from friends who grow their own stuff.  They have normal jobs, they would never hurt a fly, plus I trust them not to put all kinds of garbage in my weed.  I know they're not using pesticides and all kinds of crap.  It would be even better if I grew my own stuff. 

Anyway, this was originally meant to be my commentary on the state of Somalia. Those who do their homework will find that  the oppressive theocracy is the result of almost two decades of more secular sociopolitical oppression, not the other way around. Look at it fifteen years ago, with our botched job in the region. Ten years, and a few international terrorists later, we have our current situation. None of the despots in question were particularly pious Muslims, but radical Islam is a good enough scapegoat to subjugate the poor for the cause of "righteous" political action, and so it stuck.

This is what I could not articulate as well.

The analogy I would use is weed.  I consider theism to be a drug, if god makes you happy then fine.  I don't have a big problem with people worshipping god.  My beef is with organized religion.  Religion is one method of obtaining this drug.  I like to smoke the occasional J but I won't buy it from a gang because then I'd be partially supporting all the atrocities that they commit, I'd be funding their crimes.  Instead I get it from friends who grow their own stuff.  They have normal jobs, they would never hurt a fly, plus I trust them not to put all kinds of garbage in my weed.  I know they're not using pesticides and all kinds of crap.  It would be even better if I grew my own stuff.

I agree theres a big difference between theism and organised religion, the practices of which rarely match what they preach.

I would differ in saying that I dont take theism to make me happy.  Its just a fundamental belief which feeds into the way I think about my life and which drives my actions.  In fact happiness in this life is far from my top priorities, because I believe this life is only temporary.


I've been thinking, about what you guys have been saying and what my friends have told me in the past about their concerns about what they've read in the quran.  And why even though I've read through the same translations and not come to the same conclusions.

There are indeed many verses in the quran which seem very harsh, violent, unfair to women etc.  I can obviously see how much of this would instantly put non-muslims off and confuse them as to why muslims still believe in it.  Mostly coming to the conclusion that they either just ignore those parts or haven't thought about it completely.

I not only have read those part, I do believe in them.  Yep all the verses that say women should get a half share of inheritance, the verses that say kill anyone that opposes you, and the ones that say if you dont do certain things in this life or think a certain way you'll most likely get torn to pieces and burnt alive 70 times over.

But these verses obviously mean something completely different to me than to other people.  One of the big things is a belief in a life after death.  For me the quran is merely telling me that there is something much more abstract that exists outside our tiny box of a universe.  And without trying to sugar coat it, its trying to tell me what might exist outside of time, space and physics and the rules by which we define our world, but only in a language that we might understand.  Fire isn't really fire but something like fire, rivers of milk and honey aren't really milk and honey etc.

A lot of the assertions then seem a lot less extreme and absurd, as long as we dont think about them in terms of our rules.

The killing and violence is another aspect that isn't sugar coated.  It merely tells me that our human societies are violent in nature, and many verses comfirm to me that it only means this as defence from oppression.  Are there any situations where you would kill someone?  Not many in our life, we're lucky enough to be in a tolerant society, but its not always going to be like that.  And there are signs of breaking today.

As for womens rights in Islam.  When it comes to wealth - wealth is seen as a great thing in our modern capitalist society.  The more you have the better.  But it is not seen as purely a blessing in Islam, and actually a burden and a responsibility.  Wealth in this world is actually pretty worthless, what will it gain me in the longrun?  So the responsibility of wealth is not something Muslim women actually want. 
There are also big biological differences between men and women, the most obvious being about physical strength and childbirth for example.  Because of some of these differences, the onus of wealth responsibilty is put on men.  Its mandatory for men to work for society, where as its merely an option for women. 
The reason for the hijab, is because Islam believes men are weak-minded.  Women have to bear this responsibility in Islam because they are considered as the stronger mind.  Muslim women tell me they actually feel liberated by this, since there is no longer social pressure to look a size 0 for everyone else to see.
And lastly women are said in Islam to have an easier time after this life, whereas men will bear most of the brunt.


All the above is absurd, religions plan to control the masses, if you believe life ends in nothingness.  And thats fine, each to their own right?  But at least I hope you understand why I can read all those bits and not feel the need to become a sociopathic, sexist, suicidal maniac.

Evolution of the eye:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2PiuJyLykE

Science in the Quran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT1Ycljs3eo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4CgrIiYSZE&feature=related

These videos don't talk about a lot but I would like to see some responses.

I'm not sure why people seem to think that there was a mystical driving force behind biological development.

I always used to believe in evolution, but it wasn't until I started studying Genetics at uni that I really had a sound understanding of it. When you actually understand the function of DNA, how mutation works, the biochemistry involved, genes, etc, the theory of evolution practically becomes undeniable.

In my last lecture of this year (about 2 weeks ago), we had a really interesting discussion about natural selection and how we're actually slowing the process down through medical/genetic advances. For example, take In vitro fertilization. A couple wants to have a child. If the female is unable to carry a child due to a certain genetic mutation we can get around this problem in some cases with IVF. While this is all well and good for the parents, by doing this we're passing those defective genes on to the next generation. We're actually ensuring the survival of a defective genotype.

This can be applied to many areas of genetics and medicine, so in some cases it's quite ironic how our efforts to improve our quality of life can be a double edged sword.

Never underestimate a persons ability to lie to themselves when the lie supports what they want. 

The reason for the hijab, is because Islam believes men are weak-minded. Women have to bear this responsibility in Islam because they are considered as the stronger mind. Muslim women tell me they actually feel liberated by this, since there is no longer social pressure to look a size 0 for everyone else to see. And lastly women are said in Islam to have an easier time after this life, whereas men will bear most of the brunt.

 
Why would a god give men free will, if he then sets down rules, why not just work people like an ant hide.
 
If god created us in his image, why arent we perfect, why do we have flaws, cheat on wifes, girlfriends, and in some cases kill people.
 
As far women covering themselves, yeah i heard some say its a relief, but how would they know if they have never known freedom?
 
If there is a god, he was one sick motherfucker thats for sure.

Imagine if i ruled my country, I told you that if you wore your underpants outside your pants, never cut your toe nails, and always slapped the neighbours daughter in her butt (provided it was slappable) you would go to heaven when you die, and 10 elefantmen would serve you brunch everymorning because you had been a good follower.

If you looked at my county from the outside, what would you think of it?

Agent Ghost


Never underestimate a persons ability to lie to themselves when the lie supports what they want. 

It's probably got a lot to do with ignorance. Some people just don't know any better, they don't understand the underlying principles of biology or they find it confusing. Hence they'll go with what concepts that they can grasp more readily (ie "God did it). But just because some supernal being didn't do it doesn't make it any less amazing. On the contrary, the more I learn, the more I appreciate things, and think just how incredible "life" is.

If there is a god, he was one sick motherfucker thats for sure.

Not to mention a bad engineer.  The human body alone has so many flaws I don't see how anyone can support the idea that god is  perfect.  Even an average human engineer could have done a much better job.  We have too many teeth in our lower jaw, our digestive system can't support our diets, neither can our circulatory system.  Our eyes for example are actually getting worst every generation due to what Unlucky was talking about.  We have glasses and surgery to compensate for the disadvantage of defective eyes.  The result is that the bad genes have no reason of becoming less popular through the generations.  The eye has too many genes that must be correct to provide good vision.  Eventually it will become an oddity when a person is naturally born with 20/20 vision.  There's something royally fucked with women that makes giving birth incredibly painful.  This isn't a universal thing with all animals.  It shouldn't be painful.  you ever watch an animal give birth, often it's like their taking a shit.  Baby comes out then it's business as usual.  I read somewhere that the issue women have has to do with humans going from a quadruped to a biped decreasing space in the pelvic region coupled with the fact that our heads are too fucking big.  The list of problems the human body has is endless...

That's not even considering all the failed animals.  I've never seen a Christian talk about the animals that become extinct.  Do you know how many species become extinct each day?  They certainly weren't perfect.  What makes you think we're any different?  Do you think the human race will survive forever?  We're a blip on the radar, an impressive blip, but still just a blip.  We don't even deserve a god.  Certainly not one in our image.

If god was directing evolution so to speak, he wouldn't have been such a fuck up.

It's probably got a lot to do with ignorance. Some people just don't know any better, they don't understand the underlying principles of biology or they find it confusing. Hence they'll go with what concepts that they can grasp more readily (ie "God did it). But just because some supernal being didn't do it doesn't make it any less amazing. On the contrary, the more I learn, the more I appreciate things, and think just how incredible "life" is.

Yes but it's not all ignorance.  Choupolo is a fucking doctor.  Intelligent and educated people can and do fall for this stuff.  Choupolo has access to science and I'm sure he's capable of unbiased reason and logic.  It baffles me that the only problem he sees with the Quran is the distaste for pork.  At some point he has to be seeing facts and choosing to ignor them.  It's not because he doesn't understand the facts, he just rejects them because they don't support the ideas that make him happy.  Religion has an emotional appeal.  You can't argue with a religious person without them resorting to talking about what they want or like. 

The fact is our wants are irrelevant to truth, unless you genuinly want to know the truth.  The Universe does not revolve around humanity.  The Universe doesn't deal in abstract ideas either.  Everything is mathematical and measurable even if we don't have the means to do so.  The Universe existed long before humanity and it will exist long after we are gone.  The Universe is VASTE.  I'm not surprised that (in extremely rare cases) it suports life.  Which seems convinient for us, but it really is the case where life adapts to the extremely slim conditions which support life.  Just as everything adapts to change we are also given this chance, when we fail to adapt we die.  It's inevitable that we will fail to adapt at some point.  People can't accept this so they subscribe to the notion of eternal life where heaven adapts to humanity and everyone is happy forever.  It originates from our survival instinct.

The notion that the Universe adapts to Humans is ridiculous, when clearly it is life that adapts to the conditions the Universe provides. 

So how and why did life begin in the first place? The same reason many of the elements on the periodic table exist.  The conditions provided the appropriate effect.  Look at how the elements formed, how the planets and stars formed at the atomic level and life is no longer a mystery.  Science has explained more than some like to admit. 

Yeah I just had 4 wisdom teeth removed because my body is putting out teeth as if though I had the larger jaw/cranium of my primate ancestors.

And god does this shit hurt, 2 of the teeth were the type where they just pull em out in 2 minutes, the other 2 were FULL GROWN teeth stuck under my gum and crushing my 2nd set of lower molars, so they had to OPEN my gum up, shatter the tooth, pull it out in pieces and stitch my gums & the inside of my cheek back together, my lower jaw looks like I have Cancer right now.

I'm also starving, scared as shit to eat as when I last attempted it felt like someone was splitting my jaw apart. 

Or, maybe some higher up being just likes me to suffer, or would have liked my teeth to be crushed and rotten if I happened to be born 100 + years ago.   Though the pain pills help, but it would be easier if I could make the pain go away through prayer instead of relying on science, those pills are expensive.