Western games vs Japanese games

1up put up a good article recently talking about the differences between Western and Japanese cultures (and to some extent console vs PC games), which reflect in the games we all know and love. It' s quite interesting despite having to be very stereotypical to prove its point. Funniest bit! :-

" ...For instance, as a hunting and trapping society, an American may go deer hunting and encounter a bear. Japanese would be scared by this encounter, whereas the American will probably shoot the bear and go back excited that he got a bear instead of a deer..."

Says Keiji Inafune! Like I said, stereotypical, but read the article, I found it a good read.

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=0&cId=3155815

Some very interesting observations and comparisons. I was particularly interested in the recurring theme in Japanese RPGs of banding together to kill God. This is precisely the theme of the " His Dark Materials" trilogy of books that are being adapted into films, the first one being " The Golden Compass." Sega apparently has the license for the games based on these films/books. Considering the knee-jerk right wing religious uproar surrounding the " Harry Potter" series, which in actuality has no particularly blasphemous moral themes, I can only speculate as to what sort of sh!tstorm awaits when this series of blockbuster movies and videogames comes out which focuses on an epic quest to destroy the church and assassinate God! Just another Sega innovation for the western market!

I was particularly interested in the recurring theme in Japanese RPGs of banding together to kill God.

...dunno about the god part, but Japanese society holds group dynamics, co-operation and general banding together in extreme high regard.... ...it' s the basis for the " Salary Man" stereotype, where a typical Japanese practically lives and dies for his corporate organisation...

...i remember watching some sci-tech programme on teevee where they studied a group of Japanese kids verses a bunch of American kids in gaming preferences...
...the Japanese when faced with a single player racing sim like GT, would band together around the player, giving tips and making suggestions... ....if the player came first, the whole group would celebrate the victory...
....the American kids tended to be far more single minded, keeping tips to them selves, and being solely focused on their own individual (selfish ?) success...

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Meh, the Japanese are just soft.

Good read. The points made were pretty obvious, but there' s some interesting observations in there.

The points they made about RPG' s read like a personal blueprint to my own gaming history. Back in the 8bit and 16bit days I played loads of JRPG' s. But even then I longed for more freedom. The best thing about my favorite back then, Shining Force 2, was that I could build my little force however I wanted.

Then I played Morrowind. Now I can' t even play a JRPG, they hold absolutely no attraction for me. I even skipped the last Zelda.

I know JRPG' s do what they do well, which is why I keep my mouth shut when people praise them. I just have no desire to play through a point-to-point story. It' s just...boring.

On the other hand, Oblivion is the game I' ve been waiting for my entire life. Every mundane detail thrills the hell out of me. I mean, I actually read all the damn books in-game. Everything else I have ever played pales in comparison.

Hey people! Interesting post, but I just have one question for anyone reading: Do you prefer Oblivion over Fallout and Planescape: Torment?

PS: BTW Majik, are you back to the old avatar?

ORIGINAL: Papado

PS: BTW Majik, are you back to the old avatar?

Briefly. I' ve submitted a new one and i' m just waiting for it to be uploaded.

Majik' s old one was too fat

On the other hand, Oblivion is the game I' ve been waiting for my entire life. Every mundane detail thrills the hell out of me. I mean, I actually read all the damn books in-game. Everything else I have ever played pales in comparison.

Oblivion is a turd, so many shit things about that game, a halfed-assed effort and such lack of attention to detail.. Play twilight Princess after, and it make you think.. " This is more like it!!!, this is how Horse riding should look and feel like, this is how swiming across lakes should be like, this is how combat should be played like this is how animation should look like, this is how ambient sound should sound like..

Oblivion has a good undertone, but when the top layer is soo fucked up and glitchy, i really wonder how the hell that got past A&R.. then again this is a Western RPG so attetion to detail, fluid controls and flowing physics and pretty artwort is out of the question.

Do you prefer Oblivion over Fallout and Planescape: Torment?

Oblivion gets no where near the two others in terms of story and gameplay, but oblivions size and depth is great as well!

But id always choose Fallout and Planescape!

ORIGINAL: f3hunter


Play twilight Princess after, and it make you think.. " This is more like it!!!, this is how Horse riding should look and feel like, this is how swiming across lakes should be like, this is how combat should be played like this is how animation should look like, this is how ambient sound should sound like..

Oblivion has a good undertone, but when the top layer is soo fucked up and glitchy, i really wonder how the hell that got past A&R.. then again this is a Western RPG so attetion to detail, fluid controls and flowing physics and pretty artwort is out of the question.

I enjoy possibilities vs ambience.
Plus, I' m f*cking sick of Link. So it doesn' t matter how pretty Link' s world gets, it' s still friggin' Link and I' m sick of playing his stories. He BORES me.

I enjoy possibilities vs ambience.

Possibilities yeah, Possibilities of Glitches and sound Lag..

I can understand one being bord of link, but if one is soo used to Zelda games i wonder how one can possibly rate such an unpolished game as Oblivion.

Possibilities yeah, Possibilities of Glitches and sound Lag..

I can understand one being bord of link, but if one is soo used to Zelda games i wonder how one can possibly rate such an unpolished game as Oblivion.

Comparing Zelda and OB is like comparing Duke Nukem and Civilization

Comparing Zelda and OB is like comparing Duke Nukem and Civilization

Best thing I heard today.

I' d Pick Jrpg over Oblivion. Untill Western Rpgs [wrgs?] get a little soul, then the Japs have my pick.

Change is inevitable. Except from a vending machine.

Viva La Revolution! erm, I mean Viva La Wii!

a little soul

You mean clichéd sentimental storytelling?

Just kidding, I like jrpgs more too

Oblivion is a turd, so many shit things about that game, a halfed-assed effort and such lack of attention to detail.. Play twilight Princess after, and it make you think.. " This is more like it!!!, this is how Horse riding should look and feel like, this is how swiming across lakes should be like, this is how combat should be played like this is how animation should look like, this is how ambient sound should sound like..

Too bad its all forced, and the player never chooses to do any of it.

I think thats the point hes trying to make.

I dont want to celebrate, I want to sell you hate.

I agree with everything Nekkid Monkey said, I feel the same way.

I would like to add a few things. One, the fact that Oblivion (one western RPG) is buggy is completely beside the point. Are you trying to say that JRPGs never have bugs? If western RPGs have more bugs it' s only because more lines of code and newer game engines means you have greater odds of glitches. I would choose a buggy game with original gameplay mechanics over a jap RPG with legacy gameplay and no bugs.

Secondly, Oblivion is easily the best RPG ever made, the second best is probably Morrowind. Kotor I and II fight for third place. All western RPGs. No JRPG even comes close to these. Maybe the Zelda games on Game Boy...

Finally I have to say I' m pretty sceptical when I see people talk about innovation when they prefer Jap RPGs over some of the only real innovations in gaming that western RPGs are providing. Jap RPGs haven' t changed since the psone era, they were cool ten years ago but now it' s getting a little stale. Gameplay is far more important than style which some of you have shamelessly depict as being " soul" . Don' t even get me started about the story lines. The Japanese are just as redundant with the stories as they are with the gameplay.

People are still saying that FF7 was the best RPG ever made. That game is so old yet JRPGs apparently still haven' t improved over it. JRPGs are still the same as they were ten years ago, just repackaged.

Comparing Zelda and OB is like comparing Duke Nukem and Civilization

No, its like comparing Oblivion to Zelda, and I was actually comparing the same gameplay elements they both share IE the horse riding, swimming, sword fighting., tho Zelda does them 100Xs better.. But any Gamer would know that. (unless ur one who happens to like disagreeing to anything i say (Gin :P)

I would like to add a few things. One, the fact that Oblivion (one western RPG) is buggy is completely beside the point. Are you trying to say that JRPGs never have bugs? If western RPGs have more bugs it' s only because more lines of code and newer game engines means you have greater odds of glitches. I would choose a buggy game with original gameplay mechanics over a jap RPG with legacy gameplay and no bugs.

Your Joking right??

Gameplay Mechanics?? OBLIVION?? WTF?? Zeldas totally rip it to peices.. Zelda does SOO much more things with gameplay.. Even petting your horse, or picking up and petting small animals lol..

And trying to excuses glitches in games is stupid, especially when the developers had soo much time to work on this hardware (and have used it before)... When SEGA broke the mould into Full 3D fighters / Racers (Virtua Racing, Virtua Fighter), or Nintendo Broke the Mould into a true fully 3D plattformer and Adventure (M64, OOT), you never seen hardly any glitches, if any.. And them times using polygones was a brand new thing (especially for SEGAs groundbreaking Games).. No excuss atall..

Gameplay Mechanics?? OBLIVION?? WTF?? Zeldas totally rip it to peices.. Zelda does SOO much more things with gameplay.. Even petting your horse, or picking up and petting small animals lol..

I don' t think you want to turn this argument into what can you do in Oblivion Vs. Zelda.

I enjoy possibilities vs ambience.
Plus, I' m f*cking sick of Link. So it doesn' t matter how pretty Link' s world gets, it' s still friggin' Link and I' m sick of playing his stories. He BORES me.

Never the same story, and never the same link. So many people missed out on some interesting points brought up by Wind Waker by not playing it. Twilight Princess has the best story out of all of them in my opinion though.

" What most people need to learn in life is how to love people and use things instead of using people and loving things."
~ Unknown ~

TP is very Dark.. very unlike the usual ZELDA style.

No, its like comparing Oblivion to Zelda, and I was actually comparing the same gameplay elements they both share IE the horse riding, swimming, sword fighting., tho Zelda does them 100Xs better.. But any Gamer would know that. (unless ur one who happens to like disagreeing to anything i say (Gin :P)

Well Zelda is good, but its still Zelda through and through, nothing new, same game new shell.

I havent played the wii version, but its probably much the same as the GCN, i dont prefer OB over Zelda, they two very different expiriences, where is Zelda is more linier, OB begs to be discovered you can go anywhere!

(unless ur one who happens to like disagreeing to anything i say (Gin :P)

What the hell? I usually agree with most things you say, it' s just that I only post stuff when I don' t agree.
If you' d like to I will post stuff like
" Yes indeed" , " Right on F3" , " F3 is so right" , " Yes, I agree with you F3" , " That' s exactly what I think" and so on.
I love Zelda and I rather watch someone else play any Zelda game than to play Oblivion myself.

Gameplay is far more important than style which some of you have shamelessly depict as being " soul" .

Oblivion has very little soul, I am not talking about the gameplay, the whole world feels dead and never gets beyond that, A toned up Radiant Ai could have fixed this problem a bit, but the world never feels like its in peril, the people happily walk around while ' worrying' about the nearest oblivion, they don' t show it, they just go around like any other day, The city' s are not under siege, the Guards are psychic,The world is Beautiful and is huge but the majority wont explore it due to bad fps problems and annoying load times, The Combat is simple and only involves three actions, attack, block, spell.

The game has more in common with gta than Zelda.

I dont like Zelda much either though, don' t get me started

Change is inevitable. Except from a vending machine.

Viva La Revolution! erm, I mean Viva La Wii!

When did I say Oblivion was better than Zelda?

If I wanted to play a game like Zelda, Oblivion wouldn' t satisfy me.

But I don' t want to play a Zelda game, so i leave it on the shelf.
Zelda' s great at being Zelda, that doesn' t mean I have to like it.

Direct comparisons on horseback riding, swimming, and sword fighting.

Horseback riding...yeah it looks prettier, but what if i just don' t feel like having a horse? Can I kill it and leave it in the road? I' ll say again, I prefer possibilities.

Swimming...same thing. Designated areas to swim, specific reasons to swim. Meh.
I could go all the way through Oblivion I bet(haven' t finished yet) and never get my feet wet. Freedom, possibilities.

Sword fighting, same point. Yep, that Link sure can use that sword...that the game led him directly to, and he really has no choice but to use.
I prefer to be able to buy my own damn sword and have it enchanted with whatever spell I want. Or staff, or axe. Or just say screw it all and go at it bare-fisted in nothing but my skivvies.

JRPG' s do what they do extremely well, they just don' t do what I want them to do.

Once again, in case it still hasn' t sunk in, I PREFER FREEDOM.



...and there' s absolutely nothing wrong with the attention to detail in Oblivion.

Horseback riding...yeah it looks prettier, but what if i just don' t feel like having a horse? Can I kill it and leave it in the road? I' ll say again, I prefer possibilities.

Um... you can get of the horse in Zelda.
Sure, you can' t kill ut but... how fun is it doing that?

Anyway, it seems the main difference between Zelda and Oblivion that makes people dislike one or the other is the freedom, or lack of it.
I feel that the freedom in Oblivion is exactly what makes me dislike the game. If it would' ve been more linear with a clear storyline then I would' ve loved it.
I mean, if I want to walk around a free world and feel free, doing random stuff the way I want, then I would just take a walk in town in real life.
Zelda on the other hand puts me in another persons (Link' s) life, which I found much more interesting.
Zelda tells a story, lets me live someone else' s life for a moment.
Oblivion tries to give me an alternative life, but I' m satisfied with my real life so I don' t get interested. To me Oblivion is more like a medieval playground where I kill people and mix different herbs and stuff to make poison.

ORIGINAL: ginjirou

Um... you can get of the horse in Zelda.
Sure, you can' t kill ut but... how fun is it doing that?

I never actually did that, horses cost too damn much I was just making a point.

I did the bare-fisted no clothes thing once just to see how many people it took to beat me to death in the middle of the street after I punched some random chick.

I never actually did that, horses cost too damn much

I always steal horses

The freedom thing is the essence of the 1up article really. Western gamers on the whole tend to prefer freedom and choice in games like Oblivion, KOTOR etc. The problem is with freedom comes randomness, lack of direction, genericness.

Whereas Japanese gamers on the whole prefer that linearity in JRPGs that allows the the game developers to add tonnes of character, art direction, story, message, style and an overall finely crafted experience eg Final Fantasy, Zelda. The only problem being if you don' t like that finely crafted experience they create!


Imo, I love both styles. Sometimes I want to explore a huge exciting world and do anything I want. But other times I want someone else to tell me their story.


Now the problem is Jap devs are trying to capture a western market by infusing a bit of freedom into their games, and you get a game like Lost Planet where you can have your freedom of camera angle (for the most part!) and open world, but you' ve lost most of the character and story.

And western devs have been trying to infuse character and story into their games for a while and you get a game like Gears where theres a half hearted effort at a story which could' ve been better, and a control system that doesn' t give you full control of your character.


What I' m not sure about is if the two styles necessarily mix. Although both freedom and order are necessary (in all aspects of life).

I like games that seem free but are not.
Like Shenmue.

Yea there are a few unique games out there that do get the mix just right. I' m playing Shenmue 2 at the moment actually. Sometimes the control system gets frustrating, and having to go from point to point without actually knowing where you' re going. But there' s still so much style and presentation to discover.

Resi Evil 4 is another good mix. You' re usually free to wander around, but every so often you' ll get a slightly interactive cutscene where you have to hit buttons to avoid danger. Very clever, you don' t feel directed but you are. Same in Shenmue of course.

Half-life 2 tries to do this more ambitious interactive cutscene thing, where they' ll subconsciously get you to look a certain direction when they want to show you something. It doesn' t always work though, since you' re always free to look away and miss it! Gives reason for replay value though!

...people seem to also forget that freeer games tend to have lower production values....

...speaking from the same angle as f3, titles like Zelda and Final Fantasy trade the ability to pick up any random background object and then being able to stick it in your character' s rectum, for polish and extreme attention to detail (such as great visuals, realistic character animations, quality voice acting talent and award winning designers, artists and musicians)....

...Jrps stick to the storytelling archetype, much like books and movies, rather than ineptly trying to replace real life, which is the net goal of games like Oblivion.... ...indeed, have you guys seen/heard of a PC game called ' Second Life' ? its the most talentless piece of trash imaginable (creatively speaking), but it' s totally loved by 40yr housewives who can' t get no action, because of the ' freedom' the game allows it' s users....

...not that i wanna dis you if you like that sort of thing, but just remember that both types of product serve different purposes and shouldn' t really be pitted against each other....

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I just read an old FFVII PC review on IGN and it pretty much debates the differences of western/japanese PC/console games.

IGN

And that' s really the only problem with Final Fantasy VII – the game just doesn' t offer a complete RPG experience. While it may be enough for console gamers to be herded down a path towards an inevitable goal, PC roleplaying fans are more accustomed to non-linear titles that allow them to create their own story. Although there' s no doubt that this game is perfect in almost every way technically, it just doesn' t have the depth of most good RPGs (in fact, most of our office was able to finish the game within 30 hours).

Almost anyone who enjoys a good storyline, great graphics and a solid soundtrack is going to like Final Fantasy VII, as long as they go in expecting something between a standard RPG and a graphic adventure. Players who have been waiting for the next Might & Magic, Ultima, or Wizardry will find that the game' s ultra-linear storyline and derivative gameplay offer no new challenges or surprises.

Pretty stupid review if you ask me.
It' s like he never understood the whole deal with jrpgs.

Jrps stick to the storytelling archetype, much like books and movies

But isnt that inherently the problem? I have books and movies to tell a specific story. I want my games to have a great story, but I also want to feel like Im a part of it, that I can affect it.

Case point being KOTOR. Possibly my favorite RPG of all time. There is an epic story, but I choos how I handle it. Do I embrace my new life of good? Or do I use my power and reclaim my role as Sith lord? Great story, but there are options and I can affect.

The main differnce between games and books/movies is interactivity.

If you define interactivity as hitting some buttons until you can see the next pre-set part of the story, you need help.

I dont want to celebrate, I want to sell you hate.

If I want to make my own story in my own way then I' ll write a book or make a comic.
In the " free" games there are still rules that you have to follow.
I don' t see the fun of making your own story in a game when it will suck in the end.
With a linear storyline at least you get to experience a very cool story and stuff. Just like watching a movie, but you are much more a part of it.
If a game has to be free to be interactive then interactivity sucks.

In the " free" games there are still rules that you have to follow.
I don' t see the fun of making your own story in a game when it will suck in the end.
With a linear storyline at least you get to experience a very cool story and stuff. Just like watching a movie, but you are much more a part of it.

thats what sucks about jrpg, you dont control anything, you ding sometimes, but its not sure you get to alot points to anything of yoru choice, you might as well just watch a movie instead of plaýing. your character doesnt advance on your terms, Jrpg hardly deserves to be called rpg!

In that case, I don' t like RPG' s. Because they are boring.

I think that what makes jrpg' s satisfying gameplay-wise is that you have to overcome different challenges in order to proceed. Just like in Super Mario, where you jump over edges and kill mushrooms, you' ll have to solve pussels and kill bosses and leve l up in order to proceed in jrpgs.
That' s one of the basic things in videogames, overcoming challenges.

then you dont like real rpgs. Fallout and KOTOR, Baldurs Gate and Planescape Torment, kills all other rpgs regardless of their J or W

Well, as long as I' m having a fun time playing a game I really don' t care what genre it belongs to, or who it was developed by.

EDIT: I do like KOTOR even though I haven' t finished it.