Sonic Team: Holding Sega Back

Being a huge Sega fan, and an even bigger fan of Sonic the Hedgehog I decided to purchase Sonic' s latest game. And trust me, I tried really hard to like it but holy hell is this game bad. It' s one of the worst programmed games I' ve ever come across. Bad camera, terrible glitches everywhere, endless load times, and unforgiving slowdown. I' m not trying to write a review because I believe enough has been said about how bad this game is.

At a different forum I had my own little beef to say about PSU. Even I' m quite surprised how far Sega has fallen just in the past couple years. Where are the beautiful games like JSRF, Gunvalkyrie, or Panzer Dragoon Orta? Hell even Shinobi had more going for it than Sega' s latest games.

But when I really thought about it, should I blame Sega as a whole, or one of the biggest branch of Sega that won' t stop phucking up - Sonic Team. After all, some of the Sega' s other development teams seem to be doing fine. Granted Sega hasn' t released a triple A must have in quite some time, releases like Chromehounds was well received by gamers. Virtua Fighter 5 looks amazing as does there new Monkey Ball game. Yakuza was well recieved too, and the Hockey/Soccer Manager games have been hovering around 80-90% on gamerankings.com. Plus Sega did publish (not develop) some pretty good titles recently. So it' s not as if Sega as a whole is screwing up so I feel it' s only fair to pinpoint the main problem.

Compare Sonic Team' s latest releases to the rest of Sega' s games. Does anyone else get the impression that Sonic Team is still using the same game engines developed on the Dreamcast? Seriously, look at the evolution of the Sonic games - they haven' t evolved. The same glitches that appeared in ' 99 are still in the freakin' series! The camera has yet to be fixed, only slightly improved, and even though the graphics are shoddy there' s still horrible slowdown.

Speaking of the graphics, while Sonic Team has never been know for having the best artists, Sonic 360 looks incredibly outdated. The textures are flat and often just one color. Look at Knuckles backside when he runs, you can' t really see any textures at all besides one basic color - red. The shadows are horrible, and in general the lighting effects are nothing to write about. The only good thing about the graphics are some of the character models and with the added power of the 360 the colors are more vibrant and in HD.

But it' s obvious the game was not designed from the ground up to take advantage of the 360 (or any nextgen hardware). I can' t say with 100% confidence Sonic Team still uses the same engine from the Dreamcast days, but all signs point to the fact Sonic Team probably hasn' t truly updated it in years. So all Sonic Team' s hype of a " nextgen Sonic" was a blatant lie. A Sonic game built for the 360 would have far better textures and less slowdown. I refuse to believe Kameo can have countless enemies on the screen at once but it' s impossible for Sonic Team to manage four enemies on the screen and an exploding box without slowdown. To me it' s just a sign Sonic Team tried making a game using outdated technology slightly enhanced by the power of the 360 but not truly using the power of the 360. And comparing the Sonic games from the past couple hardware generations, the Sonic games only look " slightly" better but no real visual leap has occured. Not like the visual leap of going from Halo 1 to Halo 2, without the added benefit of HD Sonic 360 would not look much better than Sonic Heroes on the original Xbox.

And then you have Phantasy Star Universe, a game I already ripped apart in the link above. Considering the original PSO was released over five years ago most would expect a bigger leap in gameplay and graphics, but once again that is definitely not the case. PSU also feels like it was created using archaic technology. Well, considering PSU was designed for the PS2 then yeah I guess that is archaic technology, but then check out Final Fantasy 11, also designed for the PS2. It looks and plays (from a technical standpoint) way better than PSU and was released two years ago! Even with a two year headstart Sonic Team is still producing visually underwhelming and outdated games.

Now I realize Sega as a whole hasn' t been doing great, but Sonic Team truly puts a black eye on Sega because it' s Sonic Team that is developing Sega' s " flagship" games. I think Sega should really cut Sonic Team loose, take the money from developing/marketing Sonic Team' s games and use the extra cash to to better enhance some of their other titles and stop letting Naka hog the spotlight. Until Sonic Team can make a game worth buying Sega should force them to stick to making Nintendo DS games. They seem to be good at that.

Sadly I may have to agree with you..
Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Riders, Sonic for the 360, all just made ya go, " WHAT The hell????"

As for the games still utilizing the Sonic Adventure engine, I might have to disagree with that only when it comes to the gameplay. On the graphics front they probably are using ' modified' versions of the same old engine. I always had the feeling that all of the post-Sonic Adventure 3D Sonic games were running on a downgraded engine, cause I honestly haven' t had much fun with a 3D Sonic game since the original Sonic Adventure, which is pretty sad. I finished the original Sonic Adventure multiple times, I didn' t bother finishing Sonic Adventure 2 or Sonic Heroes. I completed Shadow the Hedgehog once and ran FAR away from that game, never to look back..


Personally, I' d love to see AM2 and the artist formerly known as Amusement Vision release more games, maybe even take over the development of future Sonic games for a while.. Just, whatever AM2 does, please don' t add the Stun Palm of Doom to Sonic' s arsenal of moves!!

Terry Bogard - currently the most Unhelpful member of the Kikizo forums.

I rarely read posts that require me to scroll my web browser, but I really don' t think I need to read it. The title of this thread says it all and I agree. Sega can still good things as evidenced by Super Monkey Ball on the Wii (but we really don' t need the boss battles, guys). Sonic hasn' t been fun for awhile. But do we really need Sonic anymore? I don' t think so. Adventure was great, as were the Genesis/Mega Drive games (with the exception of Sonic Spinball which sucked large amounts of ass and Spencer Nilsen even used the super-crappy GEMS sound engine for that game, ensuring it would make gamer' s ears bleed). Anyway, maybe it' s time to come up with a new mascot. Nobody cares about Blast Processing anymore. I recommend a bobcat character who wears a t-shirt and makes lots of silly wisecracks over and over. The world can' t get enough of that!

They need to retire Sonic and bring back Alex Kidd!! The original pseudo mascot!!!

Terry Bogard - currently the most Unhelpful member of the Kikizo forums.

I' ll tell you what' s holding Sega back: some head-scratching decisions they' ve been making. They don' t give the Xbox 360 Virtua Fighter 5, but they do give the X360 Virtua Tennis 3, which runs off of the SAME ARCADE BOARD as VF5. That, and they don' t give the X360 Full Auto 2, but the PSP gets a version? This does not make any sense to me whatsoever! Am I the only one here?

Xbox Live gamertag: tifosiotaku

I' ll tell you what' s holding Sega back: some head-scratching decisions they' ve been making. They don' t give the Xbox 360 Virtua Fighter 5, but they do give the X360 Virtua Tennis 3, which runs off of the SAME ARCADE BOARD as VF5. That, and they don' t give the X360 Full Auto 2, but the PSP gets a version? This does not make any sense to me whatsoever! Am I the only one here?

It still bothers me that Sega announced their platform agnostic stance, then said something along the lines that their games would be multiplatform and not be exclusive but yet, Panzer Dragoon Orta remained exclusively on the Xbox, Virtua Fighter 4 and Evo remained exclusively on the PS2.

As for Full Auto 2, I' m very happy that the game is coming to the PSP, I' ll get to enjoy it on the go, but I still scratch my head over the ' 2' in the title when the game is nothing more than a Full Auto 1.5 at best.

Terry Bogard - currently the most Unhelpful member of the Kikizo forums.

ORIGINAL: Terry Bogard
It still bothers me that Sega announced their platform agnostic stance, then said something along the lines that their games would be multiplatform and not be exclusive but yet, Panzer Dragoon Orta remained exclusively on the Xbox, Virtua Fighter 4 and Evo remained exclusively on the PS2.

As for Full Auto 2, I' m very happy that the game is coming to the PSP, I' ll get to enjoy it on the go, but I still scratch my head over the ' 2' in the title when the game is nothing more than a Full Auto 1.5 at best.

I do plan on writing a letter to Sega as to the many reasons why a multiplatform VF5 would make sense. Can someone help me out here and give me the name of the guy who runs Sega of America? I know the name of the Sega AM2 head, since I can glean that from the interview Kikizo did a while back, but I need the name of the SOA head...

Xbox Live gamertag: tifosiotaku

I could talk about already there being a thread about this. But this is more of a discussion based thread (but aren' t they all?). Yes...Sonic and Sega have lost their touch...majorly.

" What most people need to learn in life is how to love people and use things instead of using people and loving things."
~ Unknown ~

Just send all of your letters to Bernie Stolar and have him forward it to the proper people at Sega

Terry Bogard - currently the most Unhelpful member of the Kikizo forums.

ORIGINAL: Terry Bogard

Just send all of your letters to Bernie Stolar and have him forward it to the proper people at Sega

I' ll just look it up on Sega' s website, then...

Xbox Live gamertag: tifosiotaku

I' ll tell you what' s holding Sega back: some head-scratching decisions they' ve been making. They don' t give the Xbox 360 Virtua Fighter 5, but they do give the X360 Virtua Tennis 3, which runs off of the SAME ARCADE BOARD as VF5. That, and they don' t give the X360 Full Auto 2, but the PSP gets a version? This does not make any sense to me whatsoever! Am I the only one here?

Wasnt that more Sony bying exclusive rights for VF5 and MS showing no interst but instead slashed out buckets of money forTemco' s DOA. (even though in japan noone cares for the game)..

I blame MS for Vf5 not being made on 360 not SEGA.. Obviously MS thought DOA is more important and never pushed for the rights of VF.

After that insult i would make MS go to hell i was AM2.

Also who in the west is really going to apreciate the qualities of VF5? Even in this very forum you have kids thinking VF is shit and even go as low in saying the graphics on VF5 are shit?? WTF??

The simply thing about SEGA now is their Creative control has more or less gone out the window in exchange with a more Business-side SEGA..

Why do you think loads of the top SEGA producers left SEGA? to have the creative control they used to have pre-dreamcast days.

SEGA was the first company outside Nintendo to have known about the Wii and its Wiimote. Nintendo actually invited divisions of SEGA to help Test the wiimote and give their thoughts on what type of games / ideas could come out of it. I Suppose SEGA, Nintendo (even after being such rivals for so long) are actually Very alike. Well they was..

Sega will never be the same again, The only way your gona see SEGA return to their old self, If they brought out a new console with a SEGA stamp on it. (you' ll see their creative passion come back)..

Dam got to go, no time to check for grammar, spelling mistakes sorry.

I blame MS for Vf5 not being made on 360 not SEGA.. Obviously MS thought DOA is more important and never pushed for the rights of VF.

After that insult i would make MS go to hell i was AM2.

If Sega wants to make money with VF5 (which all companies to do want to do) then it would make more sense to go Multi-platform. Capcom caught onto that little insight after Dead Rising did so good.

" What most people need to learn in life is how to love people and use things instead of using people and loving things."
~ Unknown ~

If Sega wants to make money with VF5 (which all companies to do want to do) then it would make more sense to go Multi-platform. Capcom caught onto that little insight after Dead Rising did so good.

No it wouldnt..

AM2 are a under-resourced but dedicated team and porting this to 360 will set back quite hefty Time and costs.. (remember porting VF5 to PS3 is alot easier and time efficient due to the PS3' s / Lindbergh' s GPu' s being very similar)..

Also AM2 would Never let another Team IE: Sumo Digital to go anywhere near there ' little baby' Virtua Fighter to port it for them.

On top of this 360 is none exsistant in japan, so thats most VF market lost already.. If it was a new IP made for the west (dead rising), it might be worth the risk But for a Hardcore fighting Franchise that is mostly recieved in Japan. It would be stupid.

VF5 is best on PS3.

ORIGINAL: f3hunter

If Sega wants to make money with VF5 (which all companies to do want to do) then it would make more sense to go Multi-platform. Capcom caught onto that little insight after Dead Rising did so good.

No it wouldnt..

AM2 are a under-resourced but dedicated team and porting this to 360 will set back quite hefty Time and costs.. (remember porting VF5 to PS3 is alot easier and time efficient due to the PS3' s / Lindbergh' s GPu' s being very similar)..

Also AM2 would Never let another Team IE: Sumo Digital to go anywhere near there ' little baby' Virtua Fighter to port it for them.

On top of this 360 is none exsistant in japan, so thats most VF market lost already.. If it was a new IP made for the west (dead rising), it might be worth the risk But for a Hardcore fighting Franchise that is mostly recieved in Japan. It would be stupid.

VF5 is best on PS3.

I don' t agree with you here, for a few reasons.
1. Not thinking about other markets is just stupid. You never know if it' s going to sell or not if you don' t make it. And besides, Dead or Alive 4 sold a million copies worldwide, so I think the demand for a good 3D fighter on the X360 is certainly there.
2. I don' t think AM2 is porting Virtua Tennis 3 to the X360, and I don' t think they ported Virtua Fighter 3tb over to the Dreamcast. I don' t see why they wouldn' t be willing to let someone else port it over, and besides, I hear that the PS3 version is almost done, so it' s not like they don' t have the time to do it themselves...
3. I don' t see why it would be hard to do an X360 port, I mean, MS appears to have gone the extra mile in making the developing part real easy. And, as mentioned above, there' s that X360 port of Virtua Tennis 3, so it' s not impossible to do...

Xbox Live gamertag: tifosiotaku

Not thinking about other markets is just stupid. You never know if it' s going to sell or not if you don' t make it. And besides, Dead or Alive 4 sold a million copies worldwide, so I think the demand for a good 3D fighter on the X360 is certainly there

.

Thats the thing, Am2 are thinking about other markets and choosing the right games for them .. Remeber Vf5 will not have online play, VF' s fighting mechanics are too tight and the game wont work online.. Online play was a big reason why DOA4 sold well (and the fact that DOA was one of the first decent games to to released on 360 and at this crucial time VF5 wasnt even half finsihed).

2. I don' t think AM2 is porting Virtua Tennis 3 to the X360, and I don' t think they ported Virtua Fighter 3tb over to the Dreamcast. I don' t see why they wouldn' t be willing to let someone else port it over, and besides, I hear that the PS3 version is almost done, so it' s not like they don' t have the time to do it themselves...

I don' t see why it would be hard to do an X360 port, I mean, MS appears to have gone the extra mile in making the developing part real easy. And, as mentioned above, there' s that X360 port of Virtua Tennis 3, so it' s not impossible to do

VT isnt AM2' s ' little baby' .. And a tennis game is obviously a better choice for cross-plattform than a hardcore fighting game that wont even utilize one of the 360s strenghs and selling points - Online play.

Am2 are doing the right thing on bussiness terms.. Making an quick arcade perfect port on PS3.. It will come out at the right time too, as it would be one of the first AAA ps3 titles and will instantly sell well as PS3 supplys are made more broader.

AM2 are a under-resourced but dedicated team and porting this to 360 will set back quite hefty Time and costs.. (remember porting VF5 to PS3 is alot easier and time efficient due to the PS3' s / Lindbergh' s GPu' s being very similar)..

Completely wrong, a majority if not all developers develop on the PC. Generally porting something over to the 360 from the PS3 is just a few coding changes and control changes, since the code is on the PC. And in actuality PS3 has been a bitch to code for for developers, so a port from the PC build to the Xbox 360 build would be much easier and less time consuming.

" What most people need to learn in life is how to love people and use things instead of using people and loving things."
~ Unknown ~

I blame MS for Vf5 not being made on 360 not SEGA.. Obviously MS thought DOA is more important and never pushed for the rights of VF.

After that insult i would make MS go to hell i was AM2.

...geez, not every beat ' em up fan is a super-hardcore pro player y' know...

...DOA does have a pretty strong following in japan.. ...especially amongst more casual gamers and girls...

...in fact it' s probably because of Itagaki' s off the wall approach that makes the series and it' s spin-off' s so fresh and appealing to cult gamers... ...it' s already pretty much a prerequisite of Famitsu' s readers to name a Team Ninja game in their top 10 most wanted too...

......multiformat titles don' t sell consoles.... ...exclusives do, and THAT is probably why Microsoft have DOA over VF.....

I blame MS for Vf5 not being made on 360 not SEGA.. Obviously MS thought DOA is more important and never pushed for the rights of VF.

After that insult i would make MS go to hell i was AM2.

If Sega wants to make money with VF5 (which all companies to do want to do) then it would make more sense to go Multiplatform. Capcom caught onto that little insight after Dead Rising did so good.

...wouldn' t the huge wad of cash Sony paid for exclusivity offset any projected earnings made by a multiformat VF5?.....

....and would the majority of trigger-happy x360 owners even be interested in such a title?....

Currently accepting Article & Review requests

Completely wrong, a majority if not all developers develop on the PC. Generally porting something over to the 360 from the PS3 is just a few coding changes and control changes, since the code is on the PC.

When asked why PS3 only...

" There is the fact that VF4 had already been released on the PS2, but another big reason is that the Lindbergh and PS3 GPUs are both from NVIDIA, so the technical barriers are low. Also, VF5 is tuned to the limits of the Lindbergh' s capabilities, so multiplatform development would have been difficult."

So not wrong, AM2 are a small but dedicated team and porting VF5 would be alot harder and time consuming to do on a console with a totally different GPU than one with virtually the same..

And in actuality PS3 has been a bitch to code for for developers, so a port from the PC build to the Xbox 360 build would be much easier and less time consuming.

Less than the easy port (due to the GPU' s) that took AM2 not even 7 months for a almost complete PS3 VF5.

But you sound like you know better, maybe you can tell AM2 their wrong and show that they could of knocked up a 360 port in less than that

Why are we talking about AM2? This thread is about how much Sonic Team sucks ass. And they do. They suck. I have more fun trying to hold in explosive diarrhea than I do playing any Sonic Team games from the past half-decade. Same goes with Sonic himself. He is retarded. Or as one of my fellow admins from Magic Box put it:

If you have followed Sonic by playing Sonic 1 first.....Sonic is easily video games version of that pretty ex-girlfriend you all had and then left and watched as she hung out with the wrong crowds, became a crack whore, lost her looks, but still desperately tries to put on makeup to cover knifewounds, scars, and wrinkles. Now she just sucks the dicks of ugly men, in this case, naieve gamers who don' t know any better, and uses the money to buy more crack.

So, so true!

FFS, Joe, I think you' re thinking of Crash Bandicoot.

Just put Sonic (and even crash bandicoot) on the Next Super Smash Bros and i' ll be happy (hell chuck in every mascot - that would f**kin rock!).

At least Sonic Wildfire (for Wii) appears to be good; plays as the classics were, but more importantly it' s FUN! Hold out for that one, and hope that' ll more future Sonic games will be in that vein rather than the 360/PS3 ones...

I' m still waiting for a next-gen Panzer Dragoon Saga If all that money that went into developing Shadow the Hedgehog [:' (] and the new Sonic [:' (] were poured into Smilebit, WE' D SEE IT BY NOW

I am not thinking of Crash Bandicoot (he sucked since his first game). Also at least they knew when to give up.

well according to oxm VF5 was all set for the 360 until right before E3 when it was made PS3 only[SEGA might regreat that now what with all the PS3 shortages]

SEGA could do with getting rid of everyone at Sonic Team, cant remeber the last time they came out with something good?

And i prey they NEVER make a Nights 2 because it will surely suck.

And i prey they NEVER make a Nights 2 because it will surely suck.

They should hold back Nights 2 untill Nintendos next Console, not only would the wiimote be established and perfected but Nintendos next console will be have the visual power.

SEGA could do with getting rid of everyone at Sonic Team, cant remeber the last time they came out with something good?

Maybe not get rid of everyone but switch things up a bit by moving members over to the various other teams within Sega. I think they just need better direction as there have been moments of greatness in their recent to previous gen offerings, it' s just that those moments are unfortunately much shorter than in their past classics.

Terry Bogard - currently the most Unhelpful member of the Kikizo forums.

ORIGINAL: Joe Redifer

Why are we talking about AM2? This thread is about how much Sonic Team sucks ass. And they do. They suck. I have more fun trying to hold in explosive diarrhea than I do playing any Sonic Team games from the past half-decade. Same goes with Sonic himself. He is retarded. Or as one of my fellow admins from Magic Box put it:

If you have followed Sonic by playing Sonic 1 first.....Sonic is easily video games version of that pretty ex-girlfriend you all had and then left and watched as she hung out with the wrong crowds, became a crack whore, lost her looks, but still desperately tries to put on makeup to cover knifewounds, scars, and wrinkles. Now she just sucks the dicks of ugly men, in this case, naieve gamers who don' t know any better, and uses the money to buy more crack.

So, so true!

TBH, the only 3D Sonic title I bothered to 100% complete was the original Sonic Adventure for the Dreamcast. I didn' t bother to touch the other ones. The only Sonic title I purchased since was Mega Collection Plus for the Xbox. I must be one of the lucky ones...

ORIGINAL: f3hunter

When asked why PS3 only...

" There is the fact that VF4 had already been released on the PS2, but another big reason is that the Lindbergh and PS3 GPUs are both from NVIDIA, so the technical barriers are low. Also, VF5 is tuned to the limits of the Lindbergh' s capabilities, so multiplatform development would have been difficult."

So not wrong, AM2 are a small but dedicated team and porting VF5 would be alot harder and time consuming to do on a console with a totally different GPU than one with virtually the same..

...but the GPU in the Lindbergh is, to the best of my knowledge, a bare-bones GeForce6800. It' s already two generations behind! It shouldn' t be THAT hard when the technology has already surpassed it. And if AM2 can port a game that uses an archaic Pentium 4 CPU to work with the Cell, they can do anything...

Xbox Live gamertag: tifosiotaku

And because I' m bored and want to hate on PSU some more --- While I am the judge of no man' s opinion, as I have a few games I love that would raise eyebrows, speaking on just a technical level PSU should be a lot more than what it is. PSU, in contrast to the surrounding level of technology, was released already outdated. Even with factoring in the hardware PSU was originally designed for, the technical aspects of PSU is flat out lacking. The control system leaves a lot to be desired for. Using just the basic 8-way movement walking can (and is) a choir, made even worse the crippling camera. I don' t know about melee classes, but playing as a cast was horrid. You' re forced to strafe constantly if you want to have any hopes of hitting your target. Combined with how incredibly long it takes to cast a spell you' re stuck watching the game more than playing. And of course when enemies get to close you' re forced to flee with means losing complete sight of the enemy as the camera goes wonky on you.

Futhermore, in comparison to other MMO' s on the market PSU just isn' t that advanced. PSO wasn' t so bad considered games like WoW/FF11 hadn' t hit mainstream with a incredibly rigid party system, but once you experience such a system it' s hard to go back. I wanted to be a healer in PSU more than anything else. Heck, I would have been happy with a hybrid class that was light on healing and big on damage. PSU offers none of this. There' s no room for healing as the game is built completely around doing damage. Besides, since you can' t consistently and accurately target someone you couldn' t heal them anyway.

Now, I don' t think Sonic Team should have completely changed the PSU formula and flat out copied other games, but, considering the advances in MMO' s over the years I can' t help but to feel that Sonic Team should have strived to make PSU something more than what it is. Right now there' s nothing about PSU that Sonic Team can claim PSU does better than any other MMO out there.

I can' t debate how much fun other people are having with the game but from a technical standpoint the game seems heavily flawed.

I was thinking about this earlier today while I was playing Sonic the Hedgehog...I realized the game does kick-ass...the execution is just extremely poor...then I thought that since this game is a blinding sign of Sonic Team' s downfall they could redeem themselves. If they can release a patch for Sonic the Hedgehog that addresses a ton of issues not only will it show to what extent online distribuiton can help for console games...but gamers might just forgive them a little bit.

PSU is understandable sucky...it is much easier to downport than upport...so essentially Sonic Team/Sega was just saving on money...which most companies would do...except the ones that value their customers :P Just kidding of course, still a Sega fan.

" What most people need to learn in life is how to love people and use things instead of using people and loving things."
~ Unknown ~

A little OT, but getting back to the reason why I initially posted here, I' m almost done with my letter to Sega regarding Virtua Fighter 5 going multiplatform. When it' s done, I' ll post it up in my blog for you all to read.

Xbox Live gamertag: tifosiotaku