True, but you' re talking about a cognitive thought, recognizing what is attractive in women, we' re talking about actually being attracted to the picture as opposed to real girls.

Its just like everything else make believe, and its story telling. It' s not like CGI girls really get it going for me, but i have to admit that i like having pretty female characters in the game as oppposed to just dudes.

Bitter a little, Chee Saw?

I don' t find the unrealistic, so-called " perfect" videogame women attractive. That doesn' t mean I' m sexually repressed, it means I actually have some class and taste! I love real women and all their body types.

ORIGINAL: Zoy

Bitter a little, Chee Saw?

I don' t find the unrealistic, so-called " perfect" videogame women attractive. That doesn' t mean I' m sexually repressed, it means I actually have some class and taste! I love real women and all their body types.

Ok, so I' ll ask this question: Why do you seem to find digital women who are rendered to be attractive so offensive?

No sane person is attracted to a CGI woman the way you' re assuming people are. There are very few people out there actually " getting off" to these women. But a lot of people, myself included, like having the option of seeing a pretty female in a game.

There' s nothing wrong with admiring beauty, and those females are created by artists as representations of beauty.

Why do you find digital representation so repulsive?

I didn' t say I find them repulsive. Just unattractive in that they look like Barbie dolls. Do you admire the beauty of Barbie dolls? Is that artistry?

You say they' re " rendered to be attractive." Implying that real women aren' t as attractive as these digital characters? No way. Real women are far more attractive.

What is offensive to me is this: by creating these digital characters to represent one ideal of beauty, the implicit message is that real people are not living up to this ideal. But the reality of the situation is that the artists and designers aren' t living up to their potential as artists because they usually only represent what is essentially a false image.

I' ll say this, too, it' s not just about the way women are represented. The male character designs in Gears of War look equally like childish wish-fulfillment. Character designs can be bad-ass without being ridiculously deformed in this pseudo-realistic way.

I mean, at a certain point you have to step back and say that perhaps some of these images are a bit insulting to our intelligence. Hopefully that certain point is achieved sometime in your mid to late teenage years.

ORIGINAL: Zoy

Bitter a little, Chee Saw?

Yes.

My heart was torn out and stomped on recently, and as such, I feel it necessary to point out that that would never happen with Ayane from DOAX!

I think it' s funny that some people want to run around in a video game with some big sweaty shirtless dude (or some effeminate bishonen type character; shirtless as well) but can' t handle playing as a pretty girl with exaggerated breasticles. What I' m saying is, " we must all LOVE the polygonal boobies!"

Hey! I installed the nude patch for DOA:XBV, and I hope they come out with one for the new game too!!

ORIGINAL: Zoy

I didn' t say I find them repulsive. Just unattractive in that they look like Barbie dolls. Do you admire the beauty of Barbie dolls? Is that artistry?

You say they' re " rendered to be attractive." Implying that real women aren' t as attractive as these digital characters? No way. Real women are far more attractive.

What is offensive to me is this: by creating these digital characters to represent one ideal of beauty, the implicit message is that real people are not living up to this ideal. But the reality of the situation is that the artists and designers aren' t living up to their potential as artists because they usually only represent what is essentially a false image.

I' ll say this, too, it' s not just about the way women are represented. The male character designs in Gears of War look equally like childish wish-fulfillment. Character designs can be bad-ass without being ridiculously deformed in this pseudo-realistic way.

I mean, at a certain point you have to step back and say that perhaps some of these images are a bit insulting to our intelligence. Hopefully that certain point is achieved sometime in your mid to late teenage years.

I would hope that eventually everyone would realize that fantasy by it' s very nature is never an insult to reality. The two are completely seperate and a mature person should be able ot appreciate both. And they should be able to do so without the guilt that our society breeds into us.

Of course real women are far more attractive than any artist can render. But that beauty comes from more that just the outward physical appearance. I seriously doubt that any sane person would turn down a real woman because she' s not quite CGI quality.

Let me get this straight: you expect a CGI artist to render a person completely realistically, never adding any embelishments? Impossible. It' s that person' s job to present a exciting image. If everyone in a game appeared 100% realistic it would be boring to look at.

Let me get this straight: you expect a CGI artist to render a person completely realistically, never adding any embelishments? Impossible. It' s that person' s job to present a exciting image. If everyone in a game appeared 100% realistic it would be boring to look at.

No, I expect an equal representation of a variety of images and styles. That' s the mark of a mature artform, like film and literature. There are realistic stories, comedies, fantasies, tragedies, action stories, horror stories... those are mature and well-balanced artforms. Video games have not matured to that point yet.

this is one of the best discussions i ever read in a kikizo forum....great explanation from all points of view.

No, I expect an equal representation of a variety of images and styles. That' s the mark of a mature artform, like film and literature. There are realistic stories, comedies, fantasies, tragedies, action stories, horror stories... those are mature and well-balanced artforms. Video games have not matured to that point yet.

...you should try playing games made by some jap guy, called hideo kojima....

ORIGINAL: Zoy

No, I expect an equal representation of a variety of images and styles. That' s the mark of a mature artform, like film and literature. There are realistic stories, comedies, fantasies, tragedies, action stories, horror stories... those are mature and well-balanced artforms. Video games have not matured to that point yet.

I whole-heartedly disagree (you knew someone would!) Games encompass all of those genres, AND they' re interactive. It' s like taking " Choose your own adventure" to another level! As far as video games not including a variety of images and styles, that' s so wrong I don' t know where to begin. If you think Gears of War is the same style as Katamari Damancy, then... well I don' t know, but they' re not!

I don' t know what you mean by " mature" either. What do you expect video games to become? Are they all supposed to look real? Are they not a " mature" artform because 90% of games feature mostly fictional and/or fantasy elements?

I would hope that eventually everyone would realize that fantasy by it' s very nature is never an insult to reality. The two are completely seperate and a mature person should be able ot appreciate both. And they should be able to do so without the guilt that our society breeds into us.

I LOOOOVE fantasy and I say, BRING ON all super deformed characters!!! I never play games for realism, hell, I don' t even watch movies for realism, so it matters not to me how realistic game characters are, in fact, the LESS realistic, the better!

I don' t know what you mean by " mature" either. What do you expect video games to become? Are they all supposed to look real? Are they not a " mature" artform because 90% of games feature mostly fictional and/or fantasy elements?

Well, before this discussion expands beyond all reasonable bounds, I will just say that what I am getting at is specifically the depiction of women. Nekkid Monkey countered me by saying that if all games depicted women realistically then things would get boring. I am countering by saying that currently the prevalent style in which women are depicted is a nonrealistic, and in fact sexist/objectifying manner, which is equally boring without a counterbalance of realistic depiction.

As far as " maturity" in an artform, I think the medium of the videogame is certainly moving in that direction with games that present the player with different results based on different ethical choices; and ' sandbox' types of open-world games in which what happens in the game is ultimately a reflection of the character (read: integrity) of the player.

But the artform of videogames won' t achieve the full depth and breadth of expressiveness unless more women become involved as creators and designers. And more women won' t even become interested in games unless they can find some in which they feel represented in a respectful way, rather than just as being objectified in a very narrow definition of what is ' sexy.'

There are already some games that fulfill that potential even in the current climate of a male-dominated industry... it should be plainly obvious that a character like Jade from " Beyond Good & Evil" is a far more interesting and nuanced character than Lara Croft in the " Tomb Raider" series. There is a fundamental difference in the attitudes that the creators had toward those characters, and in the type of appeal that those characters are intended to have for players.

Very good post there Zoy, and I see your point.

The problem is that we are in a current " catch 22" state in the gaming industry. I mean, how many women play games compared to males? I would think that the men would FAR out-number the number of women playing. As such, why would more women be interested in developing video games? Perhaps Nintendo will bring more women (and little girls) into the fold, and thusly, more game developers and artists WILL be female in the future. Perhaps the numbers will just rise slowly over the years (as they have been) and eventually we' ll reach a critical point, where the numbers are 50/50. Until then, though, the marketing for games is for men (and boys) and as such we get big, polygonal breasts!

I totally see your point about a more diverse expression of women in the video game world. If you look at the sales numbers for Beyond Good and Evil versus Tomb Raider, though, I' m sure you get my point.

It' s funny, but I like games like DOAX for what they are. They make no pretenses about being serious or politically correct. They say, " HEY, BOOBIES OVER HERE!" and that' s that. The games that I find rediculous (though not to the point of boycotting, or anything) are the ones that are serious in tone, but have women running around dressed like hoes. I just have to laugh at those and wonder when it will ever change.