No need for Blu-Ray yet?!

Perhaps the best part of the entire show was the front-end menu, where you can choose between Half-Life 2, Episode One, Episode Two, Portal and Team Fortress Two. We didn' t even play the game but seeing five pieces of awesome content on one disc made me more excited than the old Super Mario Bros./Duck Hunt cartridge. Decisions, decisions.

IGN

Now, the question is whether that was just the X06 version and those were just demos shoved onto one disc, or whether all of the content will fit on a DVD9.

Before anybody comes and starts making idiotic comments, i' ll remind you to bear in mind that HL2, Ep1, Ep2 and Portal share exactly the same assets. The textures, animations, sounds, models etc will all be the same for the most part with only minor differences. TF2 is the only one that requires it' s own assets, but it still runs on the same engine and behind the scenes much of the code will be the same.

So, do we really need Blu-Ray?!

So, do we really need Blu-Ray?!

Lets be realistic here,no

If we indeed would need more then 9gb in the future,which i douvbt will happend EXTREMLY MUCH.

Then use 2 dvd' s for that rpg or wtf that giant world that must be 3 times biggher then Oblivion needs and problem solved.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

thats only one large game that uses all the same engine.

Try that with multiple engines and I doubt you can fit it into a 9Gb disc.

Change is inevitable. Except from a vending machine.

Viva La Revolution! erm, I mean Viva La Wii!

ORIGINAL: Silentbomber

thats only one large game that uses all the same engine.

Try that with multiple engines and I doubt you can fit it into a 9Gb disc.

Ok, but what game uses multiple engines?! Why does Resistance require 22GB except to make it look like a game requires that much space?

The OB world was around 3.3-3.5 gb big.

I hardly think they took a engine which was smaller in size,they took the best they could dev.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

If Oblivion only requires 6.5 Gigs, no current game should require any more space than a DVD offers.

XBL Gamertag: Rampage99

" Basically, pollute the air all you want, your just speeding up the inevitable. Our future generations are f*cked as it is and there' s really nothing we can do about it. Have a nice day "

If we belive in what Todd said(half space taken up by 50 hour voice dialogs) then 9gb should be more then enough ffs.

When asked about this to a sony guy,i forgot where i saw it he said.

" yeah but,disc swaping is something we really should have moved past" .


Ahum.

I could care less TBH.

I played like 20 hours in ToS and then i swaped the disc and played the last 20 hours.

If i think that is annoying or hard,im a " evil man" .

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

Blue ray can only be good.

Dont know why you guys seem to think we are not ready for it, Dvd will become to small. Blue ray is the next generation dvd, and for a next gen console, maybe you should expect that.

I dont care about the price. I buy it once, not every year.

Change is inevitable. Except from a vending machine.

Viva La Revolution! erm, I mean Viva La Wii!

I have never said we' re not ready for it,but xbox360 prem cost in Sweden around 480$

The ps3 will cost 800-930$

Why?

Because of blu-ray.

Thats why im mad and think they can take it off.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

dont buy one so, you allready have a 360 and a nice pc.

Change is inevitable. Except from a vending machine.

Viva La Revolution! erm, I mean Viva La Wii!

Well then i miss out a great amount of titles,but yes im not getting a ps3 until 2007 or 2008.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

ORIGINAL: Silentbomber

Blue ray can only be good.

Dont know why you guys seem to think we are not ready for it, Dvd will become to small. Blue ray is the next generation dvd, and for a next gen console, maybe you should expect that.

I dont care about the price. I buy it once, not every year.

But PS3 can' t possibly utilize it for games the way you sem to think. Sure the disc could store double, triple or even quadruple the texture resolution possible on a DVD9 [for a decent sized game], but with PS3' s main memory bottleneck and RSX having a 128-bit memory interface and 8 ROP [Rasterizing Operation], it' s extremely difficult to take advantage of the GPU' s shader and mapping capabilities, which themselves fall short of what Xeon is capable of.

You then have the the biggest problem with the hardware, HDR and FSAA simultaneously, which 360 can do just fine. The main reason it' s much harder to do, if not impossible on PS3 is the memory bottleneck. The only current workaround is using Cells main memory for textures and FlexIO for a texture lead, which frees up GPU bandwidth.

The problem with that is you' re leaving CELL with far less than the 256MB RAM + 256kb per 6 usable SPE' s, only 128kb of which can be used for buffering. That means that CPU heavy tasks like AI and physics take a hit.

Simply put, while Blu-Ray itself offers huge advantages as a next gen medium, PS3 will struggle to take full advantage of them and developers will get lazy in the process as they won' t have to worry about things like compression. Haven' t you noticed that as far as textures go, no PS3 game has been really impressive?!

Kind of reminds me of our swedish dev here (starbreeze studios) who said the advantage with ps3 is extra storage of the disc,but they wont need it for their games like " the darkness" instead they gonna use a bit better " textures" for the 360 version since it has more video ram from the GPU in xbox360.

So majik clerarly has a point here.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

I' ve been over all of this before anyway so i don' t partuculary want to get into it again. The point is that if the all of the HL2 content will fit on one disc, and Oblivion fits on one disc, what is the additional space Blu-Ray provides going to be used for?!

Apparently sony dev are already using around 20gb.

Don' t ask me how it can be that way.

I do know that since ps2 didn' t have a good cpu that they duplicate all files to make the player run these files much faster,could it be so that all ps3 games are being duplicated because of slow blu-ray?
To compensate for that speed (2x)?

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

These are 1st generation ps3 games, they hardly utilize the power fully.

lets just wait a few years.

Change is inevitable. Except from a vending machine.

Viva La Revolution! erm, I mean Viva La Wii!

And the xbox360 do that?

2nd generation isn' t here until games like Mass effect,Gears of war,Lost odyssey and huxley etc.

Table Tennis for ex that is a first gen title is still one of the best looking games that is out there or even coming.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

Goes for all Consoles. Wii included.

Change is inevitable. Except from a vending machine.

Viva La Revolution! erm, I mean Viva La Wii!

ORIGINAL: Silentbomber

Goes for all Consoles. Wii included.

I' m not saying PS3 games look bad, not at all. I' m just saying that it' ll take time to find workarounds for the consoles technical shortcomings, and that right now there' s not proof that Blu-Ray is required for games. 9GB of compressed data is an awful lot for a game, 25GB is obviously handy, but what kind of game will need that space, except ofcourse games like FFXIII which will have 1080p CG sequences?!

Ps3 is a awesome console.

I mean look at some of the game footage,like white knight,Mgs4 and heavnly sword.

Do anyne here think Bioware or Bungie couldn' t do magic with a ps3?

Ps3 and xbox360 is equal if you ask me.

It all depends on the devs.

And that is the sad thing,sometimes we hear people show images of some game and claim its aproof of a consoles superiority,while its clearly isn' t.

Look at Mass effect,Lost odyssey and Bia3 they all use Unreal engine 3.0

And look at the 2nd best looking ps3 game,Unreal 2007,it use?

UE 3.0

Gonna be very intrestig when other company makes a break thru and dev their own graphic engine and it beats those games.

Yes,Mgs4/halo3 has done that,but then its about taste in design,not technially even though its legimit to say Mgs4 or Halo3 looks better then some Ue 3.0 driven game.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

The Playstation is begining to seem more and more like the saturn.

The only reason any dev needs BluRay is for CG cut scenes. If a game doesn' t use CG then the game can EASILY fit on a single DVD.

XBL Gamertag: Rampage99

" Basically, pollute the air all you want, your just speeding up the inevitable. Our future generations are f*cked as it is and there' s really nothing we can do about it. Have a nice day "

ORIGINAL: Rampage99

The only reason any dev needs BluRay is for CG cut scenes. If a game doesn' t use CG then the game can EASILY fit on a single DVD.

So why force Blu-Ray on developers that don' t need the space. Why not just let them decide?!

The same could be said about Blu-Ray as a movie format. If the additional space doesn' t offer any visual advantages over HD-DVD and would simply allow for more content [HD special features for example], then is it needed, or is Blu-Ray only really going to be useful for backing up data?!

You sound like people saying " is DVD needed?" 6 years ago. " Oh no I dont want to buy a PS2 why is sony forcing me to buy a DVD player its not needed!"

ORIGINAL: Evil Man

You sound like people saying " is DVD needed?" 6 years ago. " Oh no I dont want to buy a PS2 why is sony forcing me to buy a DVD player its not needed!"

First of all, DVD was the single standard. There wasn' t a format war going on when it made it to market. Right now for all we know HD-DVD could become the standard making Blu-Ray useless.

Secondly, the PS2 didn' t retail for as much as $599. Wasn' t it released at $299?!

Yeah, it was dirt cheap compared to PS3, You also have to realise that DVD players had been out for more than half-a-year when the PS2 was released.

Now granted, they weren' t widespread or anything, but it' s not like there was all the public confusion about brand, format, compression and longevity of the format. Unless something absolutely horrible and unexpected happened, DVD was gonna stick.

I think it will be an advantage to PS3 to have Blu-Ray, far later in it' s lifespan, but for now, It' s a pretty big risk compared to the competitor' s proven formats.

$500 isn' t that much money.

ORIGINAL: Evil Man

$500 isn' t that much money.

For the cheaper model?!

If i was to buy a US PS3 for $500 it would cst me £267 and whatever import charges it would bring. £267 is a weeks wage if you' re on around £14,000 ($26,200) a year which itself is less than the national average for 16-21 year olds. However, if i buy the PAL version, i' d have to pay £425 ($797) which while i' m still ok with paying and don' t think is unreasonable, i can see how some would see it as too expensive for a games console.

So you' re right, $500 isn' t a lot of money, and for a next gen DVD player/games console combo it' s really cheap. However, a lote of Americans think that the price is steep, perhaps you can explain why?

wtf?

When i paid 480$ for my 360 it still felt much,but worth it.

800-930$ feels just fucked up.

Europe is the place where the console war will be won,and Sony has hat fucked up.

Gonna be very intresting to see how many EU people who can afford that.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

HL2, Ep1, Ep2 and Portal share exactly the same assets. The textures, animations, sounds, models etc will all be the same for the most part with only minor differences.

You answered yourself.

9GB of compressed data is an awful lot for a game, 25GB is obviously handy, but what kind of game will need that space, except ofcourse games like FFXIII which will have 1080p CG sequences?!

I remembered the CD-DVD jump when i read this.

Well I guess that time will show us the answer.


Offtopic:

And look at the 2nd best looking ps3 game,Unreal 2007,it use?

Whats the best looking game on PS3 in your opinion?(just curious)

I think Bluray for PS3 will be very usefull...
The speed of the drive ain' t a problem, since it' s reading around just as fast as a doublelayered DVD, most people compare it' s speed with how fast 360 can read a singlelayer DVD, ignoring the fact that there aren' t any games I can think of on 360, wich is on a single-layer DVD.

Also having in mind that Just Cause for XBox is on around 2 GB, while on XBox 360 it' s over 7 GB, logic tells us that having the option of spending more room on next-gen games is usefull..
Some of the extra size might be the copy-protection, wich I think is 1,7 GB on 360, the rest i think is texture-improvement tough.

I' m fully aware that Kikizo-forums is basically a 360-fanclub, but I think Sony' s customers will gain alot of content on their exclusive games, by increasing the space in their optic medium.

Umm... no. with just about everything you said, including the forums being a 360 fan club. With that attitude you can let yourself out.

XBL Gamertag: Rampage99

" Basically, pollute the air all you want, your just speeding up the inevitable. Our future generations are f*cked as it is and there' s really nothing we can do about it. Have a nice day "

Oh, I think I must have missed that section about what kind of attitude I needed to have in the forum-rules. :(
Sorry about that.

Why can' t people introduce themself when they join?

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

I' m actually starting to like the Blu-ray.

This is the stuff I like about the Blu-ray:
It gives developers more space
It let' s you watch HD-movies
It' s cheaper than a stand alone HD-DVD or Blu-ray player

This is the stuff I dislike:
Long loading times (?)
Expensive games and movies (?)

What if the Blu-ray format loses to HD-DVD?
-Well, it' ll take quite a while before that happens and until then you' ll be able to enjoy HD-movies on your PS3. After that you can buy a cheap stand alone HD-DVD player. And even though the format loses the PS3 games will still take advantage of the potential Blu-ray offers and thus Blu-ray will never be useless.

What if developers don' t need the space? So far they' ve managed with DVDs.
-Well, what if developers so far actually limited their creations for the 360 to fit the DVD discs? As an example, maybe Oblivion would' ve gotten extra content if it would' ve had HD-DVD. And Oblivion wasn' t in 1080p and had no CGI.
Maybe Oblivion could' ve had a Making-of documentary, multiple language dialogues, audio commentary, or similar.
Resident Evil 4 is another example. The GCN verison showed that you could make very big and graphically impressive games without the huge amount of space DVD formats offered. But when the game was ported to the PS2 additional content was added thanks to the larger disc capacity. Who knows, maybe that content, or similar, would' ve been in the GCN version if there had been space.

But the price! It' s soooo expensive!
-The launch units will cost you quite a lot but keep in mind that the targeted consumers are early adopters, tech-freaks. The PS3 isn' t only a videogame console. It' s not a PC as some idiots claim (K.K.) but Sony' s philosophy with the PlayStation brand has always been to integrate all kinds of entertainment into one single product. Without Blu-ray Sony would be abandoning that philosophy.

But Sony won because of the mainstream image they had last gen.
-Yes, but nowadays more and more people are becoming more aware of the technological standards and thus putting focus on the latest technology will probably be supported by the majority of consumers.

Those are my thoughts on the Blu-ray.

As an example, maybe Oblivion would' ve gotten extra content if it would' ve had HD-DVD. And Oblivion wasn' t in 1080p and had no CGI.

Blue dragon is gonna be 40-60 hour long epic rpg and be in 1080p,and if it was CGI as some sonyfanboys aka gangsta claimed it was in the trailer.

Then apparently there is no problem?
Now is there?

Oblivion took up around 6.4 gb or 6.6 gb of space,if they really lacked extra space they would have used atleast the last 2.5 gb of space,and then complained.

And remember,half of the space was taken up by the 50 hour+ voice recording,not many games us that much of talking,and some ppl here on kikizo has said much of the talking was just wasteful and not intresting at all,well,then we have even more space left.

And about CGI,well look at OB you create your own character,kind of hard to have a pre-set CGI video then.

Instead when the graphic is as good as it was in Oblivion,they should stay in-game .

Lost odyssey blended CGI-In game in a very cool way,but since the CGI was in pair with In-Game i could have skipped the CGI.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

Quez, I know you make some good points in your post but I have to say that I having a hard time taking anything you post seriously nowadays.
Anyway,

Blue dragon is gonna be 40-60 hour long epic rpg and be in 1080p,and if it was CGI as some sonyfanboys aka gangsta claimed it was in the trailer.

Lost odyssey blended CGI-In game in a very cool way,but since the CGI was in pair with In-Game i could have skipped the CGI.

I' m not going to comment on those two games since they' re not out yet. We don' t know how much CGI they' ll use, we don' t know how much space they' ll use (maybe they' ll actually put the games on two discs?) and we don' t yet know if the developers will limit the content because of the lack of space.

Oblivion took up around 6.4 gb or 6.6 gb of space,if they really lacked extra space they would have used atleast the last 2.5 gb of space,and then complained.

Let' s say they want to add a 1.5 hrs making of documentary in 1080p, dialogues in another language and 1080p CGI. And make the game in 1080p. Wouldn' t that require one hell of a lot more than the remaining 2.5GB?
I would really appreciate it if FFXIII was in 1080p with lots of CGI and making of documentary as well as the choice of having japanese or english voices.

ORIGINAL: KongRudi

Oh, I think I must have missed that section about what kind of attitude I needed to have in the forum-rules. :(
Sorry about that.

Welcome. Back.

Quez, I know you make some good points in your post but I have to say that I having a hard time taking anything you post seriously nowadays.

This isn' t coming from the right mouth...

anyway...

Let' s say they want to add a 1.5 hrs making of documentary in 1080p, dialogues in another language and 1080p CGI. And make the game in 1080p. Wouldn' t that require one hell of a lot more than the remaining 2.5GB?

Yes you would need more then 2.5 gb space then.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

quote:

Let' s say they want to add a 1.5 hrs making of documentary in 1080p, dialogues in another language and 1080p CGI. And make the game in 1080p. Wouldn' t that require one hell of a lot more than the remaining 2.5GB?

Yes you would need more then 2.5 gb space then.

CGI isnt needed this gen, ingame graphics have improved to the point of making it obsolete RE4 proved that, so we saved a lot of space, the only devs really insisting on CGI are Jap developers, everyone else can make do without it, and it makes the game more fluent.

And who cares about making off? Yawn! Id rather play than watch have the made it! If they really wanted making off video add a second disc for it, i dont think anyone would mind swapping, hell they could even make it standard dvd so it could be viewed anywhere!