O...kay. Still don' t get it.

Everything fathoms said is true... except GT4 will offer more. Here' s a small (trust me there' s even more new stuff than this) list of some of the new features:

- Online play
- Completely revamped physics
- Better graphics
- More cars (and I don' t mean 20 differnt models of the same car either, there' s going to be over 500 cars spanning the history of the automobile!)
- A new " museum mode" (no one knows exactly what this is yet)
- More tracks (plently of which are based on real world tracks and several others based on real locations)
- HD support (it hasn' t been said exactly what it will be used for but you can probably expect faster load times online and off, downloadable cars, tracks. etc.)

Exactly. Proves my point nicely (same kind of list was put out from GT 2 to GT 3, and they delivered).

Sorry fathoms but if the only courses that you get air on is rally courses then you' re obviously not going fast enough

As for improvements between GT2 and GT3, they were evolutionary rather than pushing development of the genre. They were the bare minimum (PS2 graphics, revised handling with dual shock 2 blah blah) and as stressed before it was many incomplete parts, the rally mode consisted of a few simple tracks with simple handling (not the step forward in physics we were led to believe at the time) and just a small selection of cars. On its own it wouldn' t compare to a rally game, the same can be said in varying degrees for the rest of the package.

There' s nothing in the new GT4 that grabs me;

- do you feel 8 cars on track is enough? where are the 20 car races?
- where are the official tracks and championships to race the " official" cars?
- where is the damage (for racing enthusiasts!) ?

But then its possible to go into further detail, what makes GT great? Its the fact that it pushed the genre further on console formats, it raised the bar of expectation. So far this has not, it a new product that inches forward, rather than defines.

For the next leap we' ll probably have to look forward to GT5.

You had best define " leap" , buddy, ' cuz you' re not making much sense. There was as much " pushing the genre" in GT 3 as there was in GT 2 and in GT 1. In each one, there is a refined physics engine, and more of just about everything. We already dealt with car damage, and the red tape that Sony faces with the licenses and contracts they have to follow. Furthermore, in real street races, there are NEVER 20 cars on a track at once, unless it' s an F1 or some other professional race. The 20-car thing is a video game invention that doesn' t exactly scream realism. Some real Rally races don' t have ANY opponents; it' s just time trials. It' s simply too dangerous to race cars at 200 m.p.h. on ANY road, obviously.

If the list of upgrades and enhancements for GT 4 looks very similar to GT 3, and the " leap" was evident in 3, then please tell me why we wouldn' t see the leap in 4...logically-speaking.

I got hold of GT4: Prologue a few months ago and I can say that things do look very promising. Some of the new courses are stunning (the Italian hillside village full of narrow streets is awesome) and the new addition of a 10 second penalty where you can' t get over 50mph if you crash into a wall should stop wall riding and make you drive a little better. And with over 500 cars past and present it should be a bit special.

You had best define " leap" , buddy, ' cuz you' re not making much sense. There was as much " pushing the genre" in GT 3 as there was in GT 2 and in GT 1.

That’s fine buddy, I' ll put it in simpler terms for you. Before GT there were no major players in the driving market that could rival the dominance of Namco, to the point that a Ridge Racer game could always feature just one or two tracks and everyone would buy it. GT came through with new much refined handling (developed through Motor Toon GP 2) and with a huge package, plus car tuning that actually appeared to work. This was a major step forward for the console racing experience/package and wrestled Namco' s dominance of the market.

GT3 was again expected to bring more including damage (which I' ll get to). Unfortunately as said before improvements were minimal.

They were the bare minimum (PS2 graphics, revised handling with dual shock 2 blah blah)

There was nothing improved that wasn' t basic common sense?

We already dealt with car damage, and the red tape that Sony faces with the licenses and contracts they have to follow.

When the original title came out this was understandable, but today it seems hard to believe when there are rival games on the market that have somehow managed this " impossible" deal?

Furthermore, in real street races, there are NEVER 20 cars on a track at once, unless it' s an F1 or some other professional race.

But the game does contain official cars, the trademark Castrol runs in an average field of 45, the bare minimum of a field is 10 cars and as a spectator these races are usually pretty dull.

The 20-car thing is a video game invention that doesn' t exactly scream realism.

Firstly you need to visit more races, secondly if you think that racing 7 other cars creates the same excitement as racing 20 I' m wasting my time.

Some real Rally races don' t have ANY opponents; it' s just time trials.

I don' t have an issue with that particular class as it replicates the real race experience (if not in handling).

It' s simply too dangerous to race cars at 200 m.p.h. on ANY road, obviously.

(?) What’s this in relation to? Racing is inherently dangerous, that’s what makes it exciting for the fans.

If the list of upgrades and enhancements for GT 4 looks very similar to GT 3, and the " leap" was evident in 3, then please tell me why we wouldn' t see the leap in 4...logically-speaking.

There was no " leap" in GT3, it was a technical upgrade made possible by improved hardware. As discussed GT4 is lacking in these critical areas meaning it' ll be a good solid driving game, if not the market benchmark it should be setting.

When the original title came out this was understandable, but today it seems hard to believe when there are rival games on the market that have somehow managed this " impossible" deal?

It really is impossible.
How many of those games have over 500 cars? None.
How many of them feature completly realistic damage in both the way the cars look and perform after a big hit? None. What' s the closest thing? TOCA 2 and that only has about 50 cars (way less money spent on licensing) and it' s not completly realistic, the way PD wants it.

GT3 was again expected to bring more including damage (which I' ll get to). Unfortunately as said before improvements were minimal.

GT3 was never expected to bring car damage. From the very begin PD said it would be impossible due to licensing and what I said earlier.

But the game does contain official cars, the trademark Castrol runs in an average field of 45, the bare minimum of a field is 10 cars and as a spectator these races are usually pretty dull.

How many racing games have 45 competitors in them? One? A NASCAR game? Big deal! The majority of racers today have 6-8 cars on track.

As discussed GT4 is lacking in these critical areas meaning it' ll be a good solid driving game, if not the market benchmark it should be setting.

Did you play GT4? No. Fine, you can say I haven' t either but atleast I read up on it. Do you not know anything about this game? Read some info on it and you' ll see that this game is pushing the genre forwars more than any GT game before it.

I say they put in a customiable map feature, letting people make there own levels and then playing them online/offline!

ORIGINAL: CapnCrunch311


How many of them feature completly realistic damage in both the way the cars look and perform after a big hit? None. What' s the closest thing? TOCA 2 and that only has about 50 cars (way less money spent on licensing) and it' s not completly realistic, the way PD wants it.

Umm... play some Rallisport 2

Umm... play some Rallisport 2

Yeah, I know that has great a great damage system in it but it' s all one type of motor sport and there' s fewer cars.

BTW, I' ll probably going to get that game soon... see you there on XBL?

Yep! Definately. I put you on my buddies list.

Yeah, I saw that you where playing some RalliSport 2 taday... I want it so bad. I wonder if anyone here made a thread on the sites users XBL gamer tags/games list... if not, I think I' ll make one. Maybe we could get a little Kikizo tournement kinda thing going on...

It really is impossible.
How many of those games have over 500 cars? None.

But how many of those cars are actually worth driving? and is it worth sacrificing the quality of the product just to have another ordinary car in there?

How many of them feature completly realistic damage in both the way the cars look and perform after a big hit? None.

Well I prefer the mentality of striving forward, at least having a go. Instead we have cars bouncing round and it just doesn' t look good enough.

Your satified with no improvement at all?

GT3 was never expected to bring car damage. From the very begin PD said it would be impossible due to licensing and what I said earlier.

Well as discussed GT4 have overlooked it altogether.

How many racing games have 45 competitors in them? One? A NASCAR game? Big deal! The majority of racers today have 6-8 cars on track.

Which shows how much the racing experience is being limited.

Did you play GT4? No.

My comments aren' t based on the handling or the way it played. They are based on the current known contents of the package. As discussed....again;

As discussed GT4 is lacking in these critical areas meaning it' ll be a good solid driving game, if not the market benchmark it should be setting.

Finally;

Fine, you can say I haven' t either but atleast I read up on it.

Who are you to say that? I' ve worked in the UK games industry for 10 years, I make it my job to know facts and I like to see the product of video games pushed forward. Driving games are one of my specialist areas and those that know me, know I' m knowlegaable about my subject, and real life motor racing.

If you guys wanna call it the best game of all time, then I' ll leave you to it. But the developers should be under no illusions that this product will not be the cross-format market benchmark expected.

Rallisport 2 is the best racing game ever!!!

Who are you to say that? I' ve worked in the UK games industry for 10 years, I make it my job to know facts and I like to see the product of video games pushed forward. Driving games are one of my specialist areas and those that know me, know I' m knowlegaable about my subject, and real life motor racing.

If you guys wanna call it the best game of all time, then I' ll leave you to it. But the developers should be under no illusions that this product will not be the cross-format market benchmark expected.

Okay fine, then you should know that there are limitations. Everyone knows that PS2 is the weakest (in terms of specs) of the next gen systems but GT4 can easily be confused for as an X Box game... and I don' t just mean graphiclly. And I' m not calling it " the best game of all time" I just don' t agree with what your saying. You said:

Well as discussed GT4 have overlooked it altogether.

(Your talking about damage). If you would have read/watched some interviews (assuming you didn' t) with the creators you' d know that they where putting a huge effort into making damage a reality in the GT series. One of the reasons is because the PS2 just doesn' t have the technology for the level of realism they want to take it... you can' t blame PD for that. Licensing is another huge issue as I said before.

But how many of those cars are actually worth driving? and is it worth sacrificing the quality of the product just to have another ordinary car in there?

All of them are worth driving. I agree, in the other games in the series several cars where not worth driving, mostly because a lot of the cars where just slightly different models than others. This time (like I said before) the car list will span decades worth of cars possible back to the model T. The quality of the product isn' t being sacrificed, PD is pushing the PS2 harder than any developer ever has before. Car damage doesn' t neccesarly mean a better product anyway. Think of all the casual GT gamers who aren' t into the sim aspect of the series.. damage would drive them crazy.

Well I prefer the mentality of striving forward, at least having a go. Instead we have cars bouncing round and it just doesn' t look good enough.

Your satified with no improvement at all?

There will be improvment. While the game wont feature actual damage to the car it will feature an all new driving/ physics engine. There is a new penalty system also. If you slam into a wall or a car too hard you will have a ten second penalty in which your car will travel at no more than 50 mph. If you' re that serious of a racer why would you be hitting the walls anyway?

Which shows how much the racing experience is being limited.

How much it' s being limited? The number of cars on the track hardly takes away from the overall experience. Look at all the other things the series has going for it... I' d much rather have all of that than more cars on the track and some damage.

BTW, by me not seeing things the same way as you doesn' t mean I have some hatred towards you or anything. Some message board users take things like this way too seriously (I' m not saying that you' re one of them) and hate each other for life. I' m not trying to do that...

This is ridiculous. Let' s see if I can break it down into terms anybody could understand-

GT 3 added:

More makes/models of cars- less useless used cars
More tracks
More upgrades
An enhanced and refined physics engine
More races/more KINDS of races
Pit stops/tires
A weather element (rain)

Maybe somebody could please explain to me why this isn' t a " leap" from GT 2. I' m comparing WITHIN the franchise; the argument that Gran Turismo was more of a " leap" just because the gaming world had never seen anything quite like it before is completely irrelevant. I' m comparing one GT to another; not GT to the rest of the racers out there. I would also like, BESIDES CAR DAMAGE, examples of what ELSE can be added or done to a racer besides what is listed above. Please.

Otherwise, this speculation that GT 4 just won' t be great because it won' t revolutionize the genre in the same way GT did, is downright idiotic. That can be said of ALL great franchises when they started. RE redefined and actually DEFINED an entire genre, but that makes the original the best for this reason only? The first Tekken, the first Ace Combat, the first of ANY successful and fantastic franchise did something that probably hadn' t been seen before, so successive " leaps" cannot be compared within that same franchise.

I smell someone who thinks all sequels are " rehashes," without actually knowing what that word really means...

http://www.gametrailers.com/gt_vault/t_granturismo4_e3_2k4.aspx

yet another cool trailer!