Technology for Dummies

When it comes to technology, I am clueless. So can anybody tell me what are the strength and weakness for all three next-gen systems. Like, how different will the graphics be? Which one is better designed for next-gen? Or what does SPE or CELL or RSX do and how well is it used on each console?

I don' t know anything about technology but what I do know is that the PS3 is the most powerful gaming system on the planet and that it' s much, much more powerful than the 360. Sony said it. It' s true, look it up.

Yeah, but you can' t use your DS as a controller for your PS3. Check Google.

I can' t wait until that guy does the same thing with the Wii and the PS3. Until then I' m going to frequently use the " look it up" phrase.

Ah, well allow me.. Put on a pot of coffee because this will take some time.

Let' s talk about what they all have in common first, all next gen systems are what is called " risc" and that means that the code to run with-in the machine has to be very lean and with few mistakes and or loops, as oposed to " cisc" where it' s run any code.

However, not all cisc are made the same in this next gen, all look to achieve much the same thing, To run games with enough speed, and to do it as cheaply as possible.

The cell is differant because it uses little groups of little cpus to achive what might be done on a much more powerful cpu, like oompa lumpas, Those are the SPE' s and are only good at doing what they are told.

However because they went with this method, it' s required to have 1 general purpose cpu to tell the other guys what to do.

This is good, and bad..
Good because you can get mounds of performance if you have complex streaming code, like say decoding video or encoding data.

But bad, because if code happens to be redundant, it would crash the whole system.

The cell also has no effect on how the graphics look, because the RSX handles all of those.

The CPU' s in the xbox 360 are fine i guess, i would have much rather they used x86 cpus, like pentiums or athlons, those are both powerful and flexable,
But also a great deal more expensive then what microsoft is using now.

The RSX is fine for the world of PCs, where memory is as limited as to how much your motherboard can support, and constantly faster and more sophisticated cisc processors are flying to the market at breakneck speed.

But for a console, it might have some problems.
Unlike the ATI offering, that has a dedicated ram just to AA(getting rid of the jaggies) the RSX has nothing more then software, or it would have to take extra clock cycles to supersample.

The xbox360 has the best gpu on the planet right now, it' s no contest.

Because of this, the graphics will turn out much the same, if not worse then both the xbox 360, and possibly the Wii.

The xbox360 has the best gpu on the planet right now, it' s no contest.


Speaking of the Wii, it' s still up in the air.
Nintendo has never really upped the anti when it comes to graphics, they are more about content that nintendo players have always enjoyed.

I expect it to be nearly, if not more powerful then the xbox 1.

Well, that wasn' t as long as i thought...cancel that coffe.

In Laymans terms; 360 will most likely have the best visuals, PS3 won' t be far behind and Wii, though at the bottom end of the scale should be far superior to the original Xbox.

Wii' s specs haven' t been released and it' s believed that ATi are still working on the GPU and that the processor could clock in at something like 700MHz with a 1Mb L2 cache (so much for Mr Layman).

Depending on how things pan out, publisher support should be much more even and PS3 definately won' t have the volume of titles the PS2 and Playstation had.

Sony has the mindshare advantage but keeps making huge mistakes. Publishers are starting to doubt them, developers are looking to put out multi-platform titles, the price is putting some people off and they meay not even manage to launch worldwide this year.

I still expect Europe to have to wait until 2007.

I think the Wii titles shown so far could' ve been done on the Xbox. Does that mean we should expect better graphics than what we' ve seen so far.
This displacement-mapping the Wii would use that you talked about before, could you explain that in detail?

Nintendo was running everything on pumped up Gamecubes at E3. Wii' s hardware isn' t final yet.

The GPU is almost certainly not finished and the processor is said to be a PowerPC 750GX based on 750FX architecture. The 750FX could run at up to 1.1GHz, so if it' s based on that it will obviously be faster.

We know that the GPU is part of ATi' s R520 range and that in itself would enable the kind of visual output you can see on modern PC' s.

Since developers don' t have final dev-kits yet, then what we' ve seen so far isn' t what you should expect the final games to look like. There' s every possibility that Wii will be 3 - 5 times as powerful (with regard to visuals) as the Xbox.

360 games will see a jump in visual quality next year (well starting in November this year) and then again as developer get their hand on more advanced versions of XNA and then DX10.

...

As for the displacement mapping...

...Nintendo patented a new kind of DPM last year, most likely to be used in Wii. We also know that ATi has worked closely to develop a GPU that would work exactly how Nintendo wanted, leading some (including myself) that Nintendo have created a development environment that includes some advanced form of mapping technique which uses minimal syatem resources, and will be supplied with the final dev-kits.

Ther ARE more efficient ways of mapping, but Nintendo patenting their own would lead me to believe they' ve found an easier way to achieve the same results.

All we can do is wait really. But even if they don' t use displacement mapping, ...if the other specs turn out to be true, Wii will be much more powerful than Xbox was. The fact that Wii also uses a PowerPC processor certainly won' t do them any harm!

they' ve already dissmised rumours about any kind of uniqe shader techniques in Ati' s GPU.

Still, some effects in Mario are great (not unseen on Xbox , but used wise and really cool)

Textures are really sharp too.

What about the Bluray PS3 has? Will that have any effect on the games or is it purely for DVDs?

Blu-ray is no advantage for games ffs.
However yes you could do a mega ownage bundle,like putting some ps2 games into a ps3 blu-ray game for ex.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

Blueray is good for 2 things,
Storage and movies, but i also hear it has terrible load time, as something that large, with comparativly little ram would.

Oblivion was on one disc.

Enchanted arms creators thought their game would be on 2 dvd' s and that next gen would req blu-ray format,to their suprice their 50 long main quest adventure fitted on one DVD9 with no problem.

Dont let SONY scare dev or gamers.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

http://media.xbox360.ign.com/articles/617/617951/img_2812597.aspx

What does this mean?

It means that if you gave both CPU' s a formula, the cell would come up with the answer faster.

I would however like to see this as to compared to an athlon64 x2.

So what does that do for games specifically?

it doesn' t mean a whole lot for games, there might be better physics..but little else.

You seem a little too optimistic about the Wii hardware. In an IGN article about the Wii price they say that " Technologically, the Wii is approximately 1.5 times as powerful as the GameCube" which is not very impressive.
http://gear.ign.com/articles/710/710252p1.aspx
As a side note, as I' ve stated before they' re also stating that the small difference in price between the Wii and the 360 (in case of a 360 price cut) will make it difficult for Nintendo to convince people to buy the technically inferior Wii.
" a $100 mark-down would make the Core Xbox 360 only $50 more expensive than a $249 Wii."

" While the Wii can certainly of boast many innovations the Xbox 360 lacks, it is a much less powerful system, and the difference in graphical capabilities is rather noticeable if viewed side by side with a new 360 game running in High-Def. Nintendo must feel very confident that they will be able to show potential buyers exactly how much the Wii will change the way we play games if they will launch against the established Xbox 360 with so narrow a price margin."

Also, if the Wii-mote is shown to be something people want, it will be copied to greater effect on the xbox..Or to a lesser extent like the ps3.

Hey ginji. Not to question your quote, but if the 360 took a $100 price cut, that would make the Premium version only $50 more, not the Core right?

So, if they in fact were to cut the price that much, that could be HUGE for them. Just adding my two cents!

ORIGINAL: Tim Strickland

Hey ginji. Not to question your quote, but if the 360 took a $100 price cut, that would make the Premium version only $50 more, not the Core right?

So, if they in fact were to cut the price that much, that could be HUGE for them. Just adding my two cents!

You are correct, sir. As it stands now, the Core 360 is $299, which is only $50 more that the Wii (if it releases at $250).

I think what Nintendo is banking on is the same thing they' ve always touted; gameplay over power. Nintendo pretty much has the little kid demographic locked down! Moms and kids everywhere can' t resist Mario, Zelda, Donky Kong, and Pokemon. If they come correct with some fresh new IPs, and their new control scheme is a hit (which I bet it will be) then they' ll do some major damage this generation.

I just hope they unveil some kind of competent online strategy. Besides the download thing, that is (although that' s sweet too!)

Actually Chee Saw, I read that whole IGN article he quoted from - that thing is RIDDLED with errors - statistical errors, grammatical, spelling, the list goes on!

Actually, you can count me as being on the bandwagon with the Wii60 idea. Nintendo is on to something - the theory seems to be that everyone will have an XBox 360 or a PlayStation 3 - and THEN have a Wii also. It seems like a great complement system, which Nintendo themselves as stated as their goal.

Their internet scheme does seem pretty interesting - the whole, " You' re system is off but someone can leave you a present in your world, or " wii" can upload things while you' re sleeping" idea. Plus, if the web browser works out as a built-in feature, someone could finally pick up on the Dreamcast' s greatness.

Wii can only hope for a great future in entertainment - and no, I can not avoid the now not-clever puns with the name.

wrong thread EDITED

http://media.xbox360.ign.com/articles/617/617951/img_2812597.aspx

What does this mean?

It could mean a lot in the future - great physics is the first thing that comes to mind (on Sony' s conference there was a demo of some basketball where players feet were calculated on each step(where they will stand so there won' t be 180 robotic turns)).It' s mostly up to your imagination - think about things that need to be calculated almost non stop in games (AI,Physics and so on) - that' s where the boost will go.

Oblivion was on one disc.

yeah and that could be the reason why most dungeons look alike and towns and every oblivion gate is almost the same.

I wonder how they managed to put all those bugs on one DVD :)

Seriously now - Blu-ray is just as good for games as CD was back in the days - more voice samples to play, more textures to store and HD CG movies that could be used like in FF13 (with quick transitions into realtime).It is a great feature (it' s price however does not justify it' s benefits yet)

PSX had CD drive x2 and now blue-ray has 2x speed in PS3 - add to this HDD and I wouldn' t worry about loadings too much.

I don' t like the whole 599 and dualNOshock3 idea , but people have been dissing Blue Ray for games way too long ,which is unfair.

Oblivion for 360 is the most common argument, it' s on 1 DVD, cool but did it have a choice? not really.

I' m pretty sure games for the 360 are not gonna suffer cuz of the space on a DVD. the blu-ray move on sony' s part is just so they can tap into the movie industry, cuz they know movies will definitely need bigger optical storage devices.

And I just bought a 360 premium on ebay fo $440 CAD, w00t w00t. also bought halo 2 (I never had a retail copy and adam didn' t send me my prize for being a winner, which was a copy of halo 2), dod4 and criminal origins. Will be buying more. Also bought s-video cables, the nyko intercooler.

BTW, it' s been a while people! How u been. I' ve been soooooo busy with work it' s crazy, this new job is killing me. anyway, I' ll be around more often now. c ya around!

-= S + A + I + M + I + R =-

yeah and that could be the reason why most dungeons look alike and towns and every oblivion gate is almost the same.

I wonder how they managed to put all those bugs on one DVD :)

Seriously now - Blu-ray is just as good for games as CD was back in the days - more voice samples to play, more textures to store and HD CG movies that could be used like in FF13 (with quick transitions into realtime).It is a great feature (it' s price however does not justify it' s benefits yet)

PSX had CD drive x2 and now blue-ray has 2x speed in PS3 - add to this HDD and I wouldn' t worry about loadings too much.

I don' t like the whole 599 and dualNOshock3 idea , but people have been dissing Blue Ray for games way too long ,which is unfair.

Oblivion for 360 is the most common argument, it' s on 1 DVD, cool but did it have a choice? not really.

Almost every developer agrees, DVD9 is enough! So why wouldnt it be enough? I wouldnt sacrifice the speeding load times, for the ones the Blu ray games are probably going to have, id rather switch discs!

yeah it' s enough, but I don' t want my games to be cool " enough" to play - I want them to blow me away - 9GB is a lot of space but when your system works on 512MB data all the time it' s not really that big.

DVD9 may be enough but that doesn' t mean 25GB won' t help a lot - and some people realise it now ,while others will have to see it (and I' m sure it won' t be shown in first wave of PS3 games , maybe even second wave won' t proove it , but it will happen).

Having said that , I never had problems with switching discs - I don' t mind , but back then, games had a lot of CG for story tellling - now that story telling happens in interactive enviroment so it could be harder for devs to make games with DVD switching.

Another cool thing is that they have this space - if they make any game for 360 and it takes 8GB - it' s cool it fits , but if some game takes 8GB for PS3 they can put there trailers , demoes, making of , and lot' s of things .
IT' s cool to have it all on one disc and if blue ray does well ...it will be an amazing feature.

Speed load times? it' s not the case with most 360 games - loadings are at leat as long as in current gen (it' s 360' s first year so it' s not really bad since they will definitely improve upon it) - PS3 also has a nice HDD that is suppoused to be used in every game plus it' s hard to talk about load tmes since it' s not even out

While it all sounds like I defend Sony - I hate those fuckers , but it' s silly how people treat blue-ray - the most common thing you hear is " loading times will last forever and who needs 30GB?" - I wish there was at least some proof for that.

Gangsta,Gears of war will not have any loading time,as with Halo2,it will load for like 1-1,5 min then it wont load between any missions at all.

Thats cool :P

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

Sure it WOULD BE cool.

I' ll judge when it' s out but this game is really cool so who cares if it loads 5 s instead of 1:)

With extra space you could place data on disk for quicker access.

What is the read speed on the 360 anyway? I have never really played one.

I know alot lot of Xbox games I had aside from Halo(s) (altough it did load sometimes)
had long loading time. especially Unreal Tournament

If the cost for the PS3 was 100 cheaper I wouldn' t buy on launch day but
would have a problem with it.

The PS3 games shown at E3 had pretty good loading times and lots of the developers have so far not shown much worries about that.

PS3 games on E3 were (all of them) running from HDD.

Actually the,no loading times confused me in Halo2,cause you never known when you finshed a level or not,you almost finished the loading times :P

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

Well then the PS3 games will probably use the HDD to reduce loading times.

What does bandwidth have to do with games? Like how does it make games look?

Why cant wii be friends with 360?

Well then the PS3 games will probably use the HDD to reduce loading times.

That would be my guess.

Blu-Ray is still in it' s infancy and their won' t be 8x drives until sometime next year, possibly even longer because of the costs involved. PS3 is bottlenecked by their main memory division, 256Mb x 2 which i still don' t get. If it was unified then they could have sidestepped minor difficulties and the unit would be slightly more developer friendly.

I think the inclusive HDD will help the machine run Linux, but i still don' t expect a fully fledged OS (though it would be nice), and i think developers will utilize it to minimize loading times wherever possible, but there is still the issue of streaming data from the drive, and that will still be slower than 360 titles.



Quez, i expect Gears of War will still have loading times, even if they are trying to stream huge portions of the game without pauses. I think we can expact something like GRAW, where it loads while you' re being transported ingame but can only move the camera about.

Then again, Epic know their engines so anything is possible. I' ll ask.

Here' s a post Cetra made a while ago with a link to... some guy, who seems to know stuff. Might be interesting to read for someone who knows a bout technology:

http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cell/Cell3_v2.aspx

There you can see he mentions that cell will be difficult to do some specific tasks for. However, he mentions that this will not be a new type of challenge, as its equally hard to do these tasks for multicore PC' s.

He also mentiones that middleware and programs will be made to make some tasks dont be a problem at all, and these programs will also fool the processor into overcoming the bottlenecks of it.

He also mentions that the SPE' s will do alot of the hard real time programming automatically, so the programmers wont have to worry about this. When cell has all these SPE' s its been stated that developing games to process in all these will be one of the big bottlenecks, well theres the solution.

Based on that, I' d say it pretty much kills the bottleneck hype of the CELL. It states that some tasks will be hard to do for it, but there will be solutions for everything. Maybe this is why the SCE worldwide studio has been established, to help people overcome these bottlenecks. I would suppose they have already made the middleware programs.

-

You can also see the example of the CELL realtime rendering 48 different MPEG2 videos into one single HD screen at the same time, I would like to see if xbox could do this.

You can also see that Linux will be running on it as a core OS, and then you can bring up the question, what is best, linux or windows? I mention this because it was brought up how MS were a software manufacturer that would have privelages developing software for own defined hardware.

All based on Sony' s " theoretical" data.

John Carmack is the man that everybody wanted to hear talk about the next gen hardware and he claims that actual hardware performance falls well short of Sony' s predicted figures (which was a given anyway) and that it' s...

" a pain in my ass"

...to code for.

Lets hope Sony can improve the chips yield quick enough to have machines realy for a worlwide launch instead of their almost pathetic " seed quantities" rubbish.

Not that it matter to them, ...they couldn' t care less about market share!

360 drive speed is 12x (someone asked before)

I have to disagree about Halo 2 - while it was cool to play the single player campaign with no loadings , after you finished the game and tried to play any of the unlocked levels , loadings where incredibly long.

With PS3 and it' s HDD clearly to be used as cache , you could have one loading screen to fill the cache and then have blazing fast load times all over.

Add some background streaming to that (and you should know that PS devs are the best when it comes to streaming data - check Dragon Quest VIII - no loading screens or stuff like loading hiccups in Oblivion) and it could be smoother than 360.

I also don' t think that 2x256 would make anything hard for Devs - they can' t use values like " 300MB for GPU and 200 for CPU" , and that' s the only difference comparing to X360.

It is limiting in some sense , but it doesn' t make it harder to make games - that limit is very clear.I' d say it takes more time to measure and go for the perfect RAM ballance while producing a 360 title.

Yeah, but the speed of the Blu-Ray drive will directly affect loading times.

It was originally assumed that PS3 would ship with a standard 1x drive, but Pioneer starts shipping Blu-Ray players this summer and they' re shipping with 2x drives, so a 4x drive is conceivable. If they shipped with a 4x drive though then they would have to incur huge losses since the faster drives cost a lot more to manufacture.

A 2x drive is the most likely candidate, and that would mean a 64mbps = 8mb/s data transfer rate. In comparison, 360' s DVD drive is 12x which allows for a 132mbps = 16.6mb/s transfer rate.

Games on 360, if developed to take advantage of the HDD (if present) would have MUCH faster loading times than the same (multi-platform title) PS3 game.

As for the 2x 256Mb RAM not really mattering, -- it' s the developers that have slated Sony for it and praised Microsoft for 360' s unified architecture along with virtually everything else in the machine. Sure there will be ways aroiund it, but developing the tools to do that will have cost implications for the developer. It was simply a stupid decision.