Gotham 3 not in true High Definition

As we all know, Gotham 3 for the Xbox360 runs at 30fps. But that' s not all. Apparently the game is only rendered at a resolution of 1024x600 and then it is scaled up to 720p internally. Those of you with dev systems or whatnot that can do screen grabs will be able to see this. Grab a screen of the gameplay. 1024x600. Now grab a screen of a menu. 1280x720. It seems that Microsoft has given Bizzare the go-ahead to make a game not true HD, despite the fact they they claim 720p is a MINIMUM spec.

I can' t link to a source, but here is a screen grab at the resolution the GPU renders the game at before internal scaling.



So the possibilities are this:

-The Xbox360 is far weaker than previously realized.
-Bizarre Creations sucks ass at programming for the Xbox360
-This is all a hoax just to piss off Rampage999

If you simply want superb graphics then Bizarre Creations will do.

If you want superb graphics at 60 frames per second then Namco is your company as 60 frames per second seems to either be a foreign language to Bizarre Creations OR their programmers just can' t hack it at that level

Terry Bogard - currently the most Unhelpful member of the Kikizo forums.

Thus far this is a rumor. Granted Bizzare has not come out and denied the rumor, but it' s still unverified.

Either way, as others have pointed out to me already, even if it is rendered at 1024x600, the 360 can upscale to 720p with only 33% pixel loss.

Or in other words..... unless you have REALLY REALLY REALLY good eyes you' re most likely not going to be able to tell a difference between true 720p and 1024x600 upscaled to 720p.

I' m pretty sure Microsoft has told Bizarre not to talk about stuff like that. They completely ignore the issue even on their own forums, while they readily run around and answer other threads on different subjects. Don' t get me wrong, the graphics are still good, but it' s not true 720p. I honestly don' t see why the Xbox360 couldn' t do the true 1280x720 for this game, especially at 30fps.

Honestely, Joe I think that the 360 can do 720p and higher at HD level, but I think the main reason for them not running HD (if it' s true) it' s because the game has been rushed. U might say that they have had time since the release of PGR2 to make the game, but they didn' t get the final dev kits up until not long ago, and since the way they described it, it seems that they have spent a lot of time with the maps and car detail, they just haven' t had time to do it. They do have 80000 polygons per car on average, some even more, so this means they probabily, if had more time, could run true HD. U all know sometimes games r rushed, especially if they r 1st party games aiming for the launch of a console. From what I' ve seen on the videos, I can say the game still looks pretty good, we' ll see when it actually comes out.

Your post makes my head spin with it' s use of single letters in lieu of actual words, but I do agree with your point. Personally I think the Xbox360 is being rushed to market. Games are not as good as they can be as a result. But on the good side, I guess this will be the worst batch of Xbox360 games ever. Can' t get any worse! And looking at the lackluster Xbox360 launch lineup, anyone can see that things can only get better.

ofc the xbox360 is rushed.
xbox has only been out 3 years,and btw ofc all games are rushed too.
All great games for 360 comes out mid/late 2006 when ps3 is out.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

The launch line up is good for FPS fans, but beyond that...Morrowind would have helped a lot...I was very disappointed it got pushed back...

In response to the following complaint I have decided to change my signature:

" by the way, yoshimitsu you might want to click the little checkbox that makes your signature disappear." -Jonah Shoemaker, Residential Dumbass

i buy anyway ha ha lol giggy giggy

The Full power of 360 is not being used, games and hardware where rushed and thats why the games dont go true Hd. Dont worry i bet the 360 games will get much better looking, after all, just look at any launch consoles games and they are not graphicaly superior to any games made after it. It happens with all consoles. Still looks good though.

Change is inevitable. Except from a vending machine.

Viva La Revolution! erm, I mean Viva La Wii!

ORIGINAL: Joe Redifer


-This is all a hoax just to piss off Rampage999

XBL Gamertag: Rampage99

" Basically, pollute the air all you want, your just speeding up the inevitable. Our future generations are f*cked as it is and there' s really nothing we can do about it. Have a nice day "

Joe, I only used 3-5, I think, short forms of words. I just do it cuz I' m used to msn messenger. Maybe ur right, maybe I should write properly.

Quezcatol, I don' t know if you meant it as a joke, but anyways: we won' t see great games for 360 by mid 2006, it' s still too early. Some really good games will come out by then, in my opinion, but not great.

I do agree with the fact that the 360 itself has been rushed and I don' t like it one bit, but I think it is so due to the fact that MS didn' t want to put out the next Xbox after Sony put out their PS3. I think they didn' t want to let Sony get a head start since Sony is #1 with their ps2 so far. Maybe MS played their cards right, maybe they didn' t, who knows. All I know is that we will see good games for the 360, we will see high quality graphics, bigger library and more quality, but how the 360 will do compared to the other two consoles, only time will tell. Maybe we will see an increase in numbers of 360 owners for the time being, but I' m wondering how the console will do in 3 or 4 years, that' s when we will see if MS did the right thing by rushing and making a lesser capable product than they would have if they would' ve waited maybe a year longer and put out a better product (360).

I' m still gonna buy PGR3, even if it' s not in true HD.

Its hard to say when really great games come out for the xbox 360, and for sure it has littlle to do with how they utilize the hardware, ofcourse thats a fact as well, but making a story, world and character that captivates the player is a much bigger factor.

We might be surprised suddenly

Sounds like M$ is having ' premature release' issues...

Maybe it would have been more wise to get everything right, then release the 360 properly.

Videogaming is the contemporary interactive pasttime.

Nah I think now is the best time for it strategy wise. You launch now and you get tons of people who buy it right away, then you can build up for the big christmas sales and you have a huge start. I also think people tend to exaggurate about the launch being a letdown. There still are plenty of great games coming out at launch. When you compare how many games are coming out at launch for xbox 360 to previous consoles it is quite a few more.

"If you knew how good I am you would think I'm modest."

I' m not sure any of you really know what you are talking about. You' re all saying " great games are coming out later" as if any game' s greatness is judged by how many pixels of resolution there is. Ironically, though Joe is denigrating the graphics capability of PGR3, this is undoubtedly considered a flagship game by Microsoft to promote the sales of the X360. Having gotten the console off the ground, very few developers will even bother to go as far as Bizarre have, and certainly none of them will go to the extent of creating realistic looking/moving human characters. It costs too much to do it for no measurable return on the profit margin. Don' t believe me? How did GTA: SA sell then?

One of the best quality graphics in any game I bought of the current generation was Project Zero, which was, in fact, the first game I bought for my new PS2, what was it, 2000? They hand-created the characters for that, and what did it get them? No, practically all games afterwards came with the cookie-cutter characters used by The Matrix etc. Only Prince of Persia really pushed the graphics/animation boundary in later years.

The better graphic quality games do not appear later in the console' s life cycle. In point of fact, the opposite may be true. Games that launched the Dreamcast looked better than the majority of PS2 games, and all the XBox did was add some fuzziness and flashy lighting effects.

The better graphic quality games do not appear later in the console' s life cycle. In point of fact, the opposite may be true.

are u sure you have been in gaming for a long time ??
let me give u some exemples that will prove that what u said is almost false (cus there are always exceptions

N64: launch and around it : mario 64, golden eye , mario kart, turok 1
graphicaly there is huge gap one you compare them to bonjoo and tooie, perfect dark, turok 2, diddy kong racing, zelda ocarina of time...

PS2: ridge racer, tekken, street fighter ex, resident evil code veronica, shadow heart ...
can' t compare those to, gran turismo 4, god of war, tekken 5, resident 4, final fantasy x and 12, and even shadow heart 2...

xbox= halo graphicaly is not halo 2 and it' s not reddick nor doom, far cry, half life 2 those games appeared years later after launch
between splinter cell 1 and the chaos theory , there is a huge difference

i can' t stop giving exemples for all consoles, developers get used to the console years after its launch and only few developers are able to reach the ceiling from the very begining...

si if history is repeated, we are for a super ride on this next gen since those launch titles are only a entré of what will come next

I' m so happy, **Tear

The better graphic quality games do not appear later in the console' s life cycle. In point of fact, the opposite may be true.

I agree with Absoluteflame or whatever his name is. A really good example is the Saturn, Daytona USA which was a launch game and ran at 20 frames per second and had pop-up galore. A year or two later they came out with Daytona Champion Circuit Edition which ran at 30 frames per second and had MUCH less pop up. Even Sega Rally which wasn' t even a year after the original Daytona looked MUCH better and ran much faster. And Virtua Fighter ran in low resolution, but Virtua Fighter 2 which came out less than a year later ran in 4x the resolution of the original, had progressive scan support (Hi-vision), ran at 60 frames per second, had more polygons and much less break-up.

Another good example is Ridge Racer 1 for the original Playstation, which was a launch game. When Ridge Racer Type 4 came out, Ridge Racer 1 was included with the game. Except that this Ridge Racer 1 ran at 4x the resolution and twice the original framerate on the same exact system! The difference was staggering. The rest of the game code was the same, only the graphics improved.

And then there is Sega Rally 2 on the Dreamcast, compared to Daytona USA towards the end of its life. Another staggering difference.

Halo 1 and 2 is another good example since Halo 1 didn' t even run in widescreen!

And let' s not even start with Gran Turismo 3 and 4. Part 3 ran in widescreen and 480i only. Part 4 runs in widescreen and 480p (progressive scan) and even full blown 1080i HDTV! Yeah.

As programmers learn the ins and outs of a particular system, they get better and so do the results. The graphics will improve on the Xbox360. Definitely.

..... around that time, when the system' s capabilities actually begin to be tested, 3 - 4 years from now, Microsoft will release xbox3......

..non?...

Currently accepting Article & Review requests

" If you want superb graphics at 60 frames per second then Namco is your company as 60 frames per second seems to either be a foreign language to Bizarre Creations OR their programmers just can' t hack it at that level "

I hope you' re not talking about Ridge Racer, which has to be the cheapest racer series for consoles. Theres a reason why its always a launch title. As for PGR3 being in 600p, who cares? The ratio is the same as 720p and the video scaler in the gpu will bring it to 720p (we won' t know the difference) this does however mean that we probably won' t see PGR3 in native 1080i. As far as I' m concerned this is forgivable as Bizzare started development on Alpha kits, XNA isn' t even out yet.

And let' s not even start with Gran Turismo 3 and 4. Part 3 ran in widescreen and 480i only. Part 4 runs in widescreen and 480p (progressive scan) and even full blown 1080i HDTV! Yeah.

If I remember correctly GT4 wasn' t in true HD either. Merely it took a lower resolution and upscaled it to 480p.

It is definitely in true 480p and also had a 1080i mode that does indeed have fewer jaggies than the 480p mode.

As for PGR3 being in 600p, who cares? The ratio is the same as 720p and the video scaler in the gpu will bring it to 720p (we won' t know the difference)

Well I certainly care because Microsoft PROMISED that every game would have 720p MINIMUM, not FAKE 720p. And yes, we will notice the difference, or at least people who can detect such things with their eyeballs will. No Xbox360 games run in 1080i yet, not natively. All other games besides Gotham 3 run at 1280x720 natively. Scaling isn' t the same. Just because you watch a DVD in 1080i on your upscaling DVD player doesn' t mean that you are even getting 1 more pixel of detail than you do watching it at 480p. Scaling sucks.

It is definitely in true 480p and also had a 1080i mode that does indeed have fewer jaggies than the 480p mode.

Meant to say it' s not in 1080i. There' s no officially confirmation but this fact is known all across the internet.

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=334901&goto=nextnewest

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=401478&st=30

http://www.hdtvarcade.com/hdtvforum/viewtopic.php?t=1257&sid=65ea18cbfa03a74d9b883ff1cad5e9f5

http://rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33802972&page=2

http://www.gpforums.co.nz/showthread.php?threadid=258244

http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=29169&highlight=1080i

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&postid=2515717

http://boards.ign.com/Forza_Motorsport/b7806/60289945/p45

No Xbox360 games run in 1080i yet, not natively.

DOA4

are u sure you have been in gaming for a long time ??

Never said I had been!

Obviously there are some improvements from game version to game version (though the absolute zero progress of the GTA series over five years was a particularly crushing disappointment). The makers of a sequel are working with an existing game engine which they have time to tweak. And " improvement" does not mean going all out to exploit the full power of the machine.

But it strikes me that the superlatively best graphics of any XBox driving game I' ve ever seen remains PGR2 - and Juiced, Midnight Madness and even Forza just don' t match up, though Forza comes the closest. I haven' t played Pandora, but though the background detail and use of lighting may be improved over the original, I' m willing to bet that Sam still doesn' t look at anybody he' s talking to, and that the cutscene characters still look like ventriloquist dummies. Since there were several games which did a great job of character animation and design that first appeared on the Dreamcast, it remains a falling-down point that many games produced today still don' t match those standards of five years ago. Right now there are more original games appearing and planned for the next gen than there have been for a while: but last year we were inundated with licences for which the game that appeared could well have been made for the N64 - Matrix, Hulk, Spider-Man, Superman, Lord of the Rings. That trend of cheap-and-cheerful banging them out to get them in the stores in time for the move release is not going to end any time soon.

I agree with whoever it was upthread said that the X360' s appearance is far too soon - XBox still has lots of life and lots of potential, whereas the X360' s full potential will be exploited by a handful of games, whereas the real " next gen" features are absent. It' s still just a games machine with a hard drive and onilne connectivity. The real next generation machine should have been an all-in-one entertainment machine, with full internet on your TV, plus TiVo recording and a TV-on-demand subscription, and separate trays for CDs and DVDs so you could run several things at the same time. Which we could wait for two or three years or so, but now will probably have to wait until 2011 or 12.

if you have not been in gaming for a long time, the why are u posting thins you berely know about !!

a console with two trays ?? yeah right !!! it reminds me of PS3 mock ups

Oh does DOA4 support native 1080i? I haven' t been paying much attention and kind of forgot that game existed. All I keep hearing from the Xbox360 front is FPS FPS FPS!

Anyway at the very least, Gran Turismo 4 is 960i. There is a difference between that mode and 480p and the 1080i mode is the best way to play the game. Either way my point has been proven true that graphics improve as system life goes on.

though the absolute zero progress of the GTA series over five years was a particularly crushing disappointment

That' s because the programmers who make that game are not very good.

I haven' t played Pandora, but though the background detail and use of lighting may be improved over the original, I' m willing to bet that Sam still doesn' t look at anybody he' s talking to, and that the cutscene characters still look like ventriloquist dummies.

That was the 2nd game in the series made by a different branch at Ubisoft. Chaos Theory (done by the original department) on the other hand during game play has full head movement, some basic lip sync, fluid animation, varios mapping techniques & amazing character models. The cut-scenes are well done and the quick ingame fight scene in one of the later missions just looked bad ass.

As for the GTA series, Rockstar hasnt really ever been one for high-end quality but more for the quantity. Thats true for just about all their games.

The real next generation machine should have been an all-in-one entertainment machine, with full internet on your TV, plus TiVo recording and a TV-on-demand subscription, and separate trays for CDs and DVDs so you could run several things at the same time. Which we could wait for two or three years or so, but now will probably have to wait until 2011 or 12.

And I suppose their should be annual upgrades to keeping with the evolving games...wait isnt that just a high-end PC? I just want my next-gen GAME CONSOLE to be able to play good next-gen quality games for the most part. Thats the main point of console gaming isnt it? And besides Xbox360 isnt far off from your " needs" with streaming music while playing games, able to store files from Video/Cameras, Messenging(audio&video) etc etc etc...

I guess if MS, Sony, or Nintendo feel like charging an extra bit of money for stuff ppl really arnt getting the consoles for in the first place, then they could. But what sence would it make? Go plop down that type of money on a fancy PC.

Just to let you guys know, I played PGR3 today and I really could care less whether it' s true HD or not. The game looks freaking amazing!!!!!!!!!! NBA 2k6 is freaking amazing too!!!!!!! I bought my copy of NBA 2k6 today.

XBL Gamertag: Rampage99

" Basically, pollute the air all you want, your just speeding up the inevitable. Our future generations are f*cked as it is and there' s really nothing we can do about it. Have a nice day "

I think it' s funny how Xbox360 fans are always boasting about every game being in HD and how the Xbox360 rocks and all that, but when a game comes along that isn' t in true HD they suddenly start spouting lines like " I don' t care!" or " It doesn' t matter!" .

Fanboys sure are a funny bunch.

i couldnt care less about full HD, i cant afford a HD tv before hell freezes over. I wonder where i can steal one :P Anyway, anything above 640*480 is improvement, so if its 1000*600 or 1280*720 it doesnt really matter. and im not sure how much you notice the difference.

Im confident that games will come out in full HD, from now on, PGR3 was rushed to the door, would have been very bad for MS if they couldnt get that title at launch either!

Hmmm, VX couldn' t care less about HD, but Rampage actually could care less. So that means Rampage DOES care about true HD!

Mmmmkay. I like have the HD thing built in and it' s pretty uncool for Bizzare to not meet the standards but when it comes down to it, I don' t own an HDTV. I don' t even have a monitor to plug the 360 into to test the HD stuff since I have a laptop. Because of this The HD feature doesn' t effect me in the slightest. I still care though because I feel not meeting the HD standard is false advertisement and pretty lame for fans. that being said, I played PGR3 on an HD monitor and even without it being fully HD it looked better than pretty much any game I' ve seen. I think MS should have made Bizzare work their asses off to get it to full HD but there is nothing I can do about it.

XBL Gamertag: Rampage99

" Basically, pollute the air all you want, your just speeding up the inevitable. Our future generations are f*cked as it is and there' s really nothing we can do about it. Have a nice day "

Abasoufiane:

if you have not been in gaming for a long time, the why are u posting thins you berely know about !!

a console with two trays ?? yeah right !!! it reminds me of PS3 mock ups

Well, I' ve been playing games on and off for 27 years, but I only got a regular console for the first time in 1999. That' s not a lot for some of you 20-year-olds who' ve been playing games since they were five, but is enough to give enough credence to my views, I hope. Or at the very least, maintain my right to post here and express an opinion, Abasou!

Dunno why a console with two trays would be so out of count, if the trays are doing different things.

Mass X:

The real next generation machine should have been an all-in-one entertainment machine, with full internet on your TV, plus TiVo recording and a TV-on-demand subscription, and separate trays for CDs and DVDs so you could run several things at the same time. Which we could wait for two or three years or so, but now will probably have to wait until 2011 or 12.

And I suppose their should be annual upgrades to keeping with the evolving games...wait isnt that just a high-end PC? I just want my next-gen GAME CONSOLE to be able to play good next-gen quality games for the most part. Thats the main point of console gaming isnt it? And besides Xbox360 isnt far off from your " needs" with streaming music while playing games, able to store files from Video/Cameras, Messenging(audio&video) etc etc etc...

The " Games Console" in that sense is dead, in my view. So is the home-use PC, really. The only viable " game console" , ie game-specific hardware in the future is going to be the handhelds. Apart from us forum-ers who do a fair amount of typing , the majority of users of computers for leisure purposes only need the amount of interaction provided by a console control anyway, which can be simulated with a remote control or maybe some kind of light-pen arrangement instead of a mouse that needs a flat surface. Otherwise, everybody gets all their input via their TV, and why should they have to change seats to play games or browse the Internet? I resent having to do that in my own home!

Mmmmkay. I like have the HD thing built in and it' s pretty uncool for Bizzare to not meet the standards but when it comes down to it, I don' t own an HDTV. I don' t even have a monitor to plug the 360 into to test the HD stuff since I have a laptop. Because of this The HD feature doesn' t effect me in the slightest. I still care though because I feel not meeting the HD standard is false advertisement and pretty lame for fans. that being said, I played PGR3 on an HD monitor and even without it being fully HD it looked better than pretty much any game I' ve seen. I think MS should have made Bizzare work their asses off to get it to full HD but there is nothing I can do about it.

Ofcourse they should have made it full HD, but hell, its prettier than PGR2, and PGR4 will surely be full HD, as long as we keep going forward

I was in a shop the other day and had the opportunity to play PGR3 on an HD widescreen tv. It was aliased to shit. I' m definitely not getting an Xbox 360 now.

The shop must have set it up wrong, when i played my PGR3 on my dads HDtv, i looked perfect, besides if PGR3 is the only reason you would be getting the 360, you' d be better of without it!

Ya the Kiosks setup around stores are very poor looking. Once I got the system up and running at home it looked far far greater then whats being demoed.

The TVs they use in stores are horrible. I' m not sure exactly what is wrong with them but the games always look horrible on them. I don' t think they are actually 720p tvs. They also probably don' t even have the 360 set for 720P output, they probably have it on 640p or 1080i.
I' ve been to several wal-marts, target, and gamestop and they all looked bad. It looks awesome on my roomate' s 32 inch widescreen LCD and awesome on my 22 inch CRT and 17 inch CRT.

"If you knew how good I am you would think I'm modest."

Yeah i think more people will be using monitors to display in HD in the coming year than those using proper HDtv' s. I definately can' t afford a HDtv at the moment, and don' t see why i should get one any time soon since my PC monitor is also a 22" CRT. When Blu-Ray and HD-DVD hit next year then i' ll probably sit down and re-evaluate my position.

Now, i have PGR3 and it' s an amazing game. I don' t try to pretend that i fully understand the whole 720p/1020i thing, i just know that it looks way better on my monitor than it does on my 28" SDtv.

But with developers saying that the PS3 is likely to suffer from anti-aliasing problems early on and that they' ll be even more evident when viewed on a HDtv, i don' t think any company is really to blame. Whilst Microsoft MAY have been economical with the truth, understand that HDtv' s are relatively new, tv shows are only slowly being moved into HD and the main medium they will support (film) Blu-Ray and HD-DVD aren' t on the market yet. I' d actually expect a couple more titles to be coded like that during the transiton period. And as far at enhanced visuals being linked to a consoles life-cycle, it more down to developers having a better understanding of the technology they' re dealing with and having the tools to create new effects and obviously time allows all that to evolve.