Uh... no. This is not talking about racism, it' s talking about enjoyment. You can' t prove what makes people enjoy a game. That is all opinion. And no, I don' t hold graphics above gameplay, I hold them at equal levels. I never disproved myself in anyway. I was saying you can take all the interaction out of something and it can still be enjoyable. Gameplay doesn' t even play a role in movies. I understand games are interactive and I have said over and over that gameplay is very important(yet you seem to ignore that). I' m just saying graphics are important too and more so than gameplay to some people. That' s their opinion. They can have it. You can have your opinion, I don' t care, just don' t push it as fact. I like immersion, that' s the most important quality in my case. Like I said if you had the outstanding gameplay of Halo but had stick figures for graphics I probably would hate it. It would throw the immersion completely out of whack. If a game is going to have me hooked it needs to be good in every area. I don' t narrow myself to one catagory as you seem to be doing, so you can shut it.

touché fathom.

Whilst I don' t expect that this diversion from the actual topic will see a definitive comment that gives it closure, I' d nevertheless like to contribute.

you buy games to play them. Graphics are the vehicle gameplay uses to fashion an environment suitable for the gameplay. The graphics augment the gameplay, but never overshadow it. Were it to do that, you simply wouldn' t have a game - instead you' d have a movie. A good game is often credited with holding the attention of the player by visual, auditory and physical means.

Thus, the graphics are only ever a reflection of the intent and purpose of the game.

Should this debate continue on its current path, we' re going to have the chicken and the egg debate - i.e. which came first, as if that would make the distinction between the importance of graphics and gameplay any clearer.

In time, we' ll stop trying to make that distinction. If graphical representations are nothing more than an effort to convey an absorbing game world, doesn' t that mean that it' s visual appeal is subjective? Let' s be honest, the distinction in graphics is becoming less and less of an issue as the advance of technology is no longer measured in quantifiable increments: when we finally reach a point where what we' re seeing is as convincing as the real world, what will we scrutinise then?
I daresay it will be the small things like pace, direction, length and story that will matter. Apparently these things don' t matter much in todays gaming climate, as long as the game plays well and looks good, but in time, we' re not going to be able to criticise those facets.


In the meantime, there is no definitive answer to this debate. I think a lot of people make the mistake of defining the graphics as the visual bulk of a game. But if you think of games in terms of movies and apply the skill of directing to a game, you' d be surprised how much more of an impact it has over the graphics.


For instance, the Harrier confrontation in MGS 2: SOL or the final level of Halo are perfect examples of games directing and implementation of graphics: it isn' t an issue of how many polygons are being shifted, it' s about creativity and the ability to tell a story through a lens.

it ain' t what you do, it' s the way that you do it.

Read my post right above yours. I never said graphics are more important than gameplay. I' m saying the whole package is important. Whatever though. Fathoms will just continue to rant about what he thinks is absolute and everyone else is just a fabnboy that he must teach a lesson too... pssh. Exactly why there is a list of about 50 people that I had coming to this forum won' t come. They saw that he' s a reguar poster and they decided not to come. The free game couldn' t even get them to come.

I' m fairly sure I didn' t mention you by name or even refer to you or your opinion, even once.

And actually, I wrote that half an hour ago, I just got round to posting it now.

I' m also fairly sure you' ve not read my post, rather skimmed through it. My post is about my own personal view with regards to how we evaluate and criticise games. Even now, and moreso as time goes on, we' ll have to start looking at the direction, pacing and storytelling elements of games when we review them. If you choose to interperate that as a critique of your viewpoint then do so, but it isn' t and was never intended to be.

To be honest rampage, if you can' t handle healthy debate on a forum, of all places, then you' re in the wrong place. You won' t find another forum anywhere else where everyone is unanimous in their opinions. Whether you agree with fathoms opinion or not, he as much as anyone else is integral to the dynamic of a forum.

Rampage, you' ve got it the wrong way ' round. I can' t get people to COME here because of the extreme level of Xbox fanboyism...Mobster leads the way, but you' re right up there. You don' t even KNOW 50 forumites online, and if you do, how' s about a list of names? The only forums you' ve ever been in were at GW and then TGIF, where I' m FAR more respected than most anybody else. Or would you like to compare lists? Can I take about a hundred names from GameSpot too? (I' ve got about 8,000 posts there)

It' s what Preacher said. You can' t handle debate because you think everything is personal. Nobody called anybody a fanboy...until you, of course. There is no opinion being offered, only fact. Interactive entertainment requires the interactive, without it, we have nothing. I' m not entirely sure why you can' t accept this, or even address it without insulting me.

Oh, and Preacher' s first long post up there is 100% correct. Read it thoroughly Ramp, you' re REALLY not getting this.

You don' t know what forums I belong to, and the people I' m talking about are old GW and TGIF members, lol. Yeah, there are two forums where they are currently posting which you don' t know about and I rather you didn' t. They thought about coming but didn' t want to deal with you. They' d also be offended if I posted links to their sites because they don' t want to deal with you. So you have a list of 100 people over at Gamespot, one of the most biased PS2 sites on the net. Wow, I' m impressed.

I read every one of these posts thoroughly, and so far I' ll I' ve seen are opinions and no facts what so ever. You can keep thinking your views are facts but they aren' t. You' ' ve been like this since back at GW. Why do you always think you got stuck in flames? Because have the time, well more than half the time you started it. It' s not because other people are fanboys, it' s because you are. I love all three systems. I get plenty of playing time on each of them. You on the other hand tend to put the Xbox down at every turn and try to make a spectacal of the PS2. Lotusson has owned you in the face many times for this. It' s funny too because you never seem to think you are wrong. Lotus copied and pasted every arguement you had in another forum that we post at and we got one hell of a kick out of it.

I really don' t care about your views or opinions anymore because of how slanted they are. You can think you' re the gaming god but it' s simply not true. What dribbles from your mouth isn' t always fact. People have opinions, and that' s all they are, opinions.

That little thing about you being the most respected out of TGIF and GW still makes me laugh.

I mean, there wasn' t anything in my long post that was even slightly confrontational, I don' t actually see how my post applies to rampage in the slightest.


I' m actually a little insulted by what seems to be a knee-jerk, aggressive reaction to my post, which was nothing more than conjecture based upon given progressions in the industry.


With that in mind Rampage, do you honestly think it would be fathom that turns me away from this forum? If you' re not even going to read my posts properly before getting agro with me for no reason, it' s more likely you who I' m not going to indulge further.

Okay, Rampage, we don' t need this again. As senior members, you and all the others are supposed to be stetting the level of quality in this forum. All you manage to do, Rampage, is make ignorant remarks that start 3 pages of people arguing with you. I admit, I was involved in the Fathoms and Lotuson argument (4pages), but they misunderstood (okay, I wasn' t clear enough) on what I was actually saying. This, however, sounds like the ramblings of a MAINSTEAM gamer, who can' t look past graphics and whatever the public media(TV) says is " cool" . You play games like Wreckless, which didn' t keep my attention for 5 min., just for " graphix" . Yes, I was enamored by the graphics of Wreckless, but that lasted for 5 minutes. After those 5 minutes, just as with all good-looking games, it comes down to gameplay. Thankfully, the Wreckless demo provided me with the right decision to buy another game. As it turned out, my little cousin bought Wreckless and confirmed my suspision, it was a gameplay catastrophy. Yes, graphics are important, and they do add to imersion, but YOU CAN NOT BE " IMMERESED" IF THE GAMEPLAY SUCKS!!!! Developers now go about these things all wrong, they make graphics, and then many seem to think gameplay is a nice " addition" . Now I find my self longing for the days when games basically all looked the same, but fun, longevity, and creativity were the goals of the developer. Yes, I like to see games made using the Unreal engine, who wouldn' t- they' re gorgous, but only if the dev. went the extra mile in the GamePlay department. All-in-All, it' s not Fathom' s opinion that graphics are a nice added bonus, and gameplay is the must, ITS THE DAMN TRUTH. And accepted by all the true gamers and game jounalist out there. So, don' t even bother to respond, just realize you were wrong and take it like a man, and let this argument end here.

Preacher, I never attacked you for the post, I just reitterated that I like the whole package and not just graphics. I apologize if I came off as attacking you but it seems we both misunderstood eachother.

Immortal... how is it ignorant to say that a good game needs all the elements of graphics, gameplay, sound, and immersion to be a AAA title. Fathoms says all there needs to be is gameplay and I find that untrue. I have stated this numerous times that it' s just my opinion. Fathoms on the other hand just continues to push his beliefs as facts, something he has done for the 3 years I' ve been posting in forums. It grows very tiring. Another thing, I have not been making ignorant comments, and it' s an ignorant comment for you to say that. The same thing I said to Preacher goes to you. I like the total package, I don' t know how I' m being labeled as the guy that' s obsessed with graphics. I' ve said all along every part is important. Immersion is the key to a great game. Were does that turn into me being a gameplay hater and graphics lover? I' m the one that is being misunderstood here. Fathoms is the one pushing that only gameplay is important. He' s being one sided and closed minded. I' m debating with a willingness to accept all the sides of a game and not just one element. How is that bad? I' m getting really confused.

Well I don' t really have anything to contribute to the argument as I think gameplay is better than graphics, and I' m very fond of Tetris.

Having said that I do have to say something about what Immortal said about being senior members and all that jazz. None of you, including Rampage, are really senior members yet. It may say so under your names, but you haven' t really reached that until you eclipse 1,000 posts, or at least in my book.

I was implying that new members will see the top posters arguing and think that this is a bad forum.

Implying? It was more like claiming a whole bunch of stuff about me that you really don' t know, like saying I' m a Wreckless fan, which I really didn' t like, and saying I' m wrong when I' m not. I could really care less though. It' s opinion based, that' s all.

I' m going to see if I can keep this civil, and clear things up-

Rampage, I know and still converse with about half the members of TGIF, and there weren' t that many to begin with. Acacia and I still e-mail each other just about every day. You find ONE FULL-TIME POSTER at TGIF that has a problem with me, and I will give you money. I' ll make you that bet right here and now.

Also, seeing as how you' ve never posted at GameSpot, I find it amazing that you can pass judgment on the hundreds of thousands of forumites that are on that board. I' ve got news for you- the forum I most frequent is very much Xbox-oriented, with more Xbox fans than anything else. But fans is all they are, Rampage; many of them have been playing games as long as I have, and longer than you. Sure, there are PS2 fans and GC fans, but just about zero fanboys. It' s kept that way for a reason. And before you start complaining about GS being harsh on Xbox games, NG just got a 9.4 and SC: PT a 9.1; the two highest scores of this year so far.

Furthermore, all you' re doing here is something that you haven' t been able to avoid as long as I' ve known you- drop-dead defense of the Xbox and graphics. You can' t help yourself. I know for a fact that somewhere in your mind, by me saying that gameplay is most important, I' m somehow insulting the Xbox. I know you think that. I' ve also told you several times that this is not an opinion or a belief; this is a FACT. Until you can present me with an argument against the following statement-

Interactive entertainment requires interaction to be entertaining.

-and proves that it is not fact and only opinion (which is absurd), then what I am presenting is fact, and what YOU are presenting is nothing but personal insults. You make it sound like I' m going after you for your opinion; I' m going after you because you' re WRONG. There is such a thing as being " wrong," Rampage. 2+2 can never equal 5; it' s not an " opinion" to say that it does.

Look around you, dude. There are two other people here that basically agree with what I' m saying. I never said gameplay was ALL that was necessary for a game to be truly great, what I said was that gameplay is necessary for the game to be playable. Great graphics or great-anything else cannot make a game playable. Why you cannot possibly admit this is beyond me.

Fathoms: You hold yourself in too highly. I have had a lot of problems with you when you were at TGIF, but I was unable to pursue them because I was a mod in the 2 biggest forums. So my advice for you is to NOT bet money with Rampage because you would lose money. I get the feeling that everyone you' re calling friends are all buddy buddy to your face because I' ve talked to quite a few people that really despise you.

Come on guys. Let' s change the subject to something else?

Immortal is utterly right, as the earliy users of these forums we should set a standard, and that means not going around in circles like this all day.