Take 2/Rockstar PR (admittedly they' re not the only offenders) for not giving review code out unless a game is guaranteed a score of X%. Pathetic.

lotusson, do you have ANY idea what " hypocrite" means? If you don' t, maybe you know what " irony" is.

See, you say you praise all these things (btw, you never ONCE said that GT 4 " plays better" than anything), and I can do the same, but somehow...you' re just a non-biased " true gamer," and I' m still a fanboy.

It only matters that you say there' s a " lot of games you' re looking forward to on the PS2," and not that my favorite game of 2002 was Splinter Cell on Xbox. It only matters if you say that you " praise PS2" games, but not when I say that I' ve spent all my time with the Xbox since Christmas. It' s all conveniently ignored.

I know you love calling people names, but that' s ALL you do. How come you never give any examples? I asked you to show me where I was a " liar," and you ignored it. So now I' ve got something for you:

Liar-

" Lotusson thinks GT4 is going to look and play better than PGR2?!?! That can' t be, he' s a fanboy"

' looks for place where lotusson said any such thing.' Oh yeah...doesn' t exist. All I see is " GT 4 is technically inferior," and NO mention of gameplay.

Liar-

" Lotusson praises PS2 games."

' searches for posts anywhere, any time where this is the case. Finds nothing. Only Xbox posts.' Well...surprise, surprise.

Hypocrite-

" Lotusson looking forward to Killzone?!? That can' t be, he' s a fanboy."

Fathoms looks forward to Ninja Gaiden and Splinter Cell: PT more than anything else on the planet? That can' t be, he' s a fanboy. Quote on quote, what dumbass lotusson would say.

Fanboy-

" There are absolutely no games on the PS2 that can compete with the likes of DOA Ultimate, Halo 2, Panzer Dragoon Orta, etc etc. The upper tier of the X-Box demolishes the PS2."

You might want to talk to your idiot buddy skurf, who is such an advocate of NOT stating opinions as fact. This is by FAR the most ignorant comment anyone has ever made...but I guess you wouldn' t recognize that.

FIRST ACCUSATION:

" Wow, running to Gamerankings to showcase a system’s worth. Seems like something a fanboy would do."

TURNING POINT:

Fathoms gives opportunity to actually debate intelligently about GAMES; lotusson decided in next post to ignore it all and flame incessantly.

LOSING POINT:

Just about the time lotusson cried like a little girl and had to bring in his fellow loser fanboys. That was REALLY funny, by the way. Oh, and you and your slimy brethren are now the subject of a 72-response post in another forum, and there ain' t a one among them that thinks you' re anything but DEFEATED. What we think is even more hysterical is that you keep coming back for more, only to be TORN APART again. One quote from that thread (and one of the more complimentary ones, for you)-

" How can anyone claim ' ownage' when all they do is chuck insults back and never address a single solitary point the other person presented?"

None of us can answer that. Maybe you can help us...or maybe I' ve worn suits that have a higher IQ than you. LOL

If we could get rid of you posers and get some real gamers in here, it could be a worthwhile forum. But thanks to YOU, I doubt I can get any of these people in here now. Good job on that front, by the way.

Oh, and my last e-mail from my ol' buddy at GW recalls dozens of Sony bashing pasts from " The One, The Only..." It' s funny. He' s not the only one.

But don' t worry. You don' t care what other people think of you, right? That doesn' t matter to you, correct? Heh...one of my favorite parts was when you bragged about your " reputation," which gets considerably worse the more I dig back in time. LMAO

*sigh*

Let me be sincere with you as that may be the only way to end all this foolishness.

lotusson, do you have ANY idea what " hypocrite" means? If you don' t, maybe you know what " irony" is.

Hypocrite is badmouthing a company while not recognizing one company has done the same. You flamed immortal for that and I pointed it out. That was all I wanted to show. Nothing more.

See, you say you praise all these things (btw, you never ONCE said that GT 4 " plays better" than anything),

I would really not to make it a statement of fact because it’s not a fact. I said I “think” it will play better. The game is not out yet to “prove” such a statement. How fanboyish would that look if I said as a statement of fact that it’s better when the game isn’t even out?

and I can do the same, but somehow...you' re just a non-biased " true gamer," and I' m still a fanboy.

Then why are you so intent on proving why the PS2 is superior to the X-Box? Why “the challenge?”

You want to talk diversity? Does the Xbox have ANY strategy games? PS2: Dynasty Tactics, Ring of Red, Kessen I, II, Romance of the Three Kingdoms VII, VIII, Disgaea: HoD. Rhythm/dance? Xbox: none PS2: Frequency, Amplitude, DDR Max 1, 2, Mad Maestro, Gitaroo-Man. RPGs? The Xbox has about four; the only two worth playing are Morrowind and KotoR, both available on PC. Oh, and BG: DA, which is on every other system. PS2: 40+, including FF, Suikoden III (soon, IV), Wild Arms 3, Dark Cloud 2, Legaia 2, .hack series, XenoSaga, Shadow Hearts, etc. Best platformers? What for the Xbox? Blinx? LOL PS2: They just have the best- the Jak and R&C series. Racing? PGR 2' s quasi-realistic gameplay will get ANNIHLATED by GT 4. And funny...NFS: Hot Pursuit 2 had the superior version on the PS2...hmm...

So...uhh...what does the Xbox actually HAVE? FPSs and a few other good action games. I have both systems. I have 32 PS2 games and 12 Xbox games. I know that the Xbox generally has better ports, and that' s why I have Max Payne 2 and Prince of Persia on that system, but it goes FAR beyond ports.

I' ve leveled this argument at the most ardent of xboys, and all they can do is throw back the " xbox rulez, sony suxxorz" pathetic argument. I know games, and I know where systems are lacking. You can' t even acknowledge strengths and weaknesses, and I have NO idea why you felt the need to bash Sony when MS is three times worse.

Seriously, what type of fanboy shit is this? I could care less about which system has the superior games. Seriously. No seriously. It’s not that big of a deal to me. I NEVER said the X-Box has superior game quality NOR selection. You’re the one who keeps bringing it up. Not me.

You speak of, “only about the games…” I never brought a “system challenge” into this. That’s why you’re a fanboy.

You blatantly challenged me to prove why the X-Box is superior when I never said such a thing nor even attempted to debate such a subject.

And that is what really gets me. I never started a system war. I tried really hard to avoid one. Seriously. I even flat out stated ”this is not a system war.”

Yet you continually force the issue. Why? Answer me that? Why? I don’t do system wars. I’ve thought they were the lamest things since 2001. You think you’re owning me because I won’t challenge you to a system war? System wars are what fanboys do.

Just look at the quote above Fathoms. You’re blatantly challenging me to fight a system war to show why the X-Box has better games quality/selection. WHAT?!?!?!?!

Like, my whole point was to show that you were being hypocritical in your attack on Immortal. Nothing more. Why did you put up a system challenge?

System wars are something fanboys do. That’s why I didn’t challenge you, because I think system wars are for fanboys. And for some reason you’re just so damn intent on proving why the PS2 is superior.

I thought you were all about “the games”, right?

Like I asked earlier, if you’re all about the games, why do you keep bringing up the systems in which they are on.?

I’m trying really hard to keep systems out of this yet you’re desperately trying to keep them in.

Why do I call you a fanboy? Because a *real gamer* wouldn’t give two-shits about which system is superior.

Looking at your challenge above… you seem to care A LOT.

It only matters that you say there' s a " lot of games you' re looking forward to on the PS2," and not that my favorite game of 2002 was Splinter Cell on Xbox.

That’s all fine and dandy, but why do you feel the need to prove why the PS2 is superior?

You see, I don’t particular care what’s superior. A true gamer doesn’t care what system he plays. Yet you HAVE to prove the PS2 is superior”

If you didn’t – THEN WHAT WAS THE CHALLENGE FOR?!

It only matters if you say that you " praise PS2" games, but not when I say that I' ve spent all my time with the Xbox since Christmas. It' s all conveniently ignored.

Which comes through so obviously in your posts….

“I spent all my time on the X-Box, this is why the PS2 is better, you fanboys.” /interpretation

That DOES NOT sound like a real gamer to me.

I know you love calling people names, but that' s ALL you do. How come you never give any examples? I asked you to show me where I was a " liar," and you ignored it. So now I' ve got something for you:

My examples were back on the first page. Example:

-------------------------------------
Me: " How many X-Box fanboys say stuff like,
“GT4 looks better than PGR2”
I can assure you, not many. If anything"

You: You said nothing of the kind. All you did is mention something about artistry. Your last statement-

Me: A flat out lie.

GT4 looks better than PGR2 but only in artistic design (because PGR2 is FLAT in that department). But on a technical level PGR2 creams GT4.

Glasses. Get them.

-------------------------------------

You see why I called you a liar? Because you said I DIDN’T say something when in fact I did. And given that I sat out to prove how hypocritical you were in your attack of Immortal, I proved that beyond a doubt.

Liar-

" Lotusson thinks GT4 is going to look and play better than PGR2?!?! That can' t be, he' s a fanboy"

' looks for place where lotusson said any such thing.' Oh yeah...doesn' t exist. All I see is " GT 4 is technically inferior," and NO mention of gameplay.

So if I don’t say something IMMEDIATELY I can’t believe it?

Answer me this, should I have to explain my every thought and feeling to you? Why? What makes you so special? If I’m trying to avoid a system debate, why would I answer your questions? Wouldn’t that just draw me further into what I’m trying desperately not to do?

Liar-

" Lotusson praises PS2 games."

' searches for posts anywhere, any time where this is the case. Finds nothing. Only Xbox posts.' Well...surprise, surprise.

I don’t praise systems, I praise games. Show me a link where I blatantly praise the X-Box JUST because it’s an X-Box.

Hypocrite-

" Lotusson looking forward to Killzone?!? That can' t be, he' s a fanboy."

Fathoms looks forward to Ninja Gaiden and Splinter Cell: PT more than anything else on the planet? That can' t be, he' s a fanboy. Quote on quote, what dumbass lotusson would say.

But am I sitting here trying to prove the superiority of the X-Box? No I’m not. You’re the one trying to fight a really irrelevant system war. Not me. I can only try so hard to avoid a system war because I have to give up.

Fanboy-

" There are absolutely no games on the PS2 that can compete with the likes of DOA Ultimate, Halo 2, Panzer Dragoon Orta, etc etc. The upper tier of the X-Box demolishes the PS2."

Graphically? Yes. That is what I believe. Got a problem with it?

You might want to talk to your idiot buddy skurf, who is such an advocate of NOT stating opinions as fact. This is by FAR the most ignorant comment anyone has ever made...but I guess you wouldn' t recognize that.

More ignorant than your original reply to Immortal? Naw.

FIRST ACCUSATION:

" Wow, running to Gamerankings to showcase a system’s worth. Seems like something a fanboy would do."

TURNING POINT:

Fathoms gives opportunity to actually debate intelligently about GAMES; lotusson decided in next post to ignore it all and flame incessantly.

Lie.

You want to talk diversity? Does the Xbox have ANY strategy games? PS2: Dynasty Tactics, Ring of Red, Kessen I, II, Romance of the Three Kingdoms VII, VIII, Disgaea: HoD. Rhythm/dance? Xbox: none PS2: Frequency, Amplitude, DDR Max 1, 2, Mad Maestro, Gitaroo-Man. RPGs? The Xbox has about four; the only two worth playing are Morrowind and KotoR, both available on PC. Oh, and BG: DA, which is on every other system. PS2: 40+, including FF, Suikoden III (soon, IV), Wild Arms 3, Dark Cloud 2, Legaia 2, .hack series, XenoSaga, Shadow Hearts, etc. Best platformers? What for the Xbox? Blinx? LOL PS2: They just have the best- the Jak and R&C series. Racing? PGR 2' s quasi-realistic gameplay will get ANNIHLATED by GT 4. And funny...NFS: Hot Pursuit 2 had the superior version on the PS2...hmm...

So...uhh...what does the Xbox actually HAVE? FPSs and a few other good action games. I have both systems. I have 32 PS2 games and 12 Xbox games. I know that the Xbox generally has better ports, and that' s why I have Max Payne 2 and Prince of Persia on that system, but it goes FAR beyond ports.

I' ve leveled this argument at the most ardent of xboys, and all they can do is throw back the " xbox rulez, sony suxxorz" pathetic argument. I know games, and I know where systems are lacking. You can' t even acknowledge strengths and weaknesses, and I have NO idea why you felt the need to bash Sony when MS is three times worse.

You never once wanted to talk about JUST the games. Only how the games show the superiority of the PS2. I’m looking RIGHT at it. Don’t’ hand me this bullshyt and expect me to buy it.

LOSING POINT:

Just about the time lotusson cried like a little girl and had to bring in his fellow loser fanboys. That was REALLY funny, by the way.

Skurf was posting here before this thread and I NEVER asked anyone to come along. In fact, they didn’t even try and debate you as much as laugh at you. That wasn’t my doing. I have no control over them.

Oh, and you and your slimy brethren are now the subject of a 72-response post in another forum,

Ooh! Can I see?! I want to see everyone making fun of me like giddy school girls. That should be awesome.

Fathoms… what type of fucking forum do you post at where this thread would garnish 72 replies? Seriously. Do you have ANY idea how lame that is? Any at all???

Fathoms, when I want to be I’m a very mature person, and quite frankly, this has all gotten out of hand.

Are you losing your mind or something? You attacked Immortal, I showed why your argument was hypocritical. Nothing more was to come. Yet you’re blatantly trying to throw a system war into all this. You know, back when the Dreamcast died and Gamerweb went down forever, one of the first things that entered my mind was how pointless system wars are. THAT’S why I’m not responding to a “this system is better than this system” style debate -- it' s lame Fathoms. I could really care less about which system is superior. I tried really hard to keep this about the games and about you. But you constantly feel the need to bring up console wars.

Why?

I have NO idea why you felt the need to bash Sony when MS is three times worse.

Bash Sony? How so? By saying they used the same tactics MS used? It’s true. By saying the graphics on the X-Box are better? It’s true. But how did this turn into,

“Microsoft is better than Sony and Sony is thrash” debate?

How?

I can take a joke for a while, but this is getting REALLY lame. I never once said I hated Sony, disliked Sony, or wish the PS2 was dead. Never said the X-Box was better. Never said the X-Box had better games. My only reason in this thread was to show exactly how wrong you were to attack Immortal like that when Sony has done the same. That’s not bashing Sony in the least.

You say MS is three times worse?

WHY THE FU DO YOU GIVE A DAMN ABOUT MICROSOFT ANYWAY?!?

That is not the thought process of a real gamer. Not in the least.

You wonder why we call you fanboy? Who put a fanboy will say “MS is three times worse”?

It’s retarded dribble like that which makes you look foolish. That is just childish Fathoms. I can see if you’re upset that I pointed out that Sony has done the same things MS has done -- but it’s true.

I really can’t see why you’re so offended. Not to the point of having a system challenge or saying MS is three times worse.

Real gamers do not get caught up in such things. I haven’t been in a “system war” in literally YEARS. I’m not going to start now. I’ve matured a lot since Segaweb and apparently you have not.

Hell, even my time at Segaweb was spent defending the Dreamcast while not knocking down the PS2.

I never flat out bashed the PS2. Yet I see you here blatantly bashing the X-Box

“Delay Box”
“MS is three times worse”

Fathoms… how old are you? Seriously. Like, I can joke around, but there is a time to act mature and grow up -- this is one of those times. You talk to me like this is still Segaweb and we’re all out to get you. That you have to prove why the PS2 is superior. I don’t play those childish games.

I tried to leave Sony/Microsoft out of this for ONE reason -- because I don’t do system wars.

Is… is that getting through to you Fathoms? When I say I’m all about the games, I really mean it. I’m never going to challenge another poster to prove why a system is superior. That is what you just tried to do with me. Why?

I’m seriously confused as to how you can call someone a fanboy when you yourself are trying to promote a system’s dominance over another. That makes absolutely no sense. None.

It’s cool that you and your 72 friends all think I’m some sort of weird loser. Fine. Segaweb didn’t like me when I said SA2 looks like garbage. I’m not worried about being “liked”. What I am worried about is getting caught up in silly system wars.

Fathoms… I’m not a child. I do not do system wars.

I seriously hope you learn from this. I went out to show you were wrong in flaming Immortal (and yes, Immortal was wrong with many of the comments he said also).

But a system war???

That is truly a thing of fanboys, Fathoms. I never said the X-Box was better, and I tried real hard from getting into a system debate with you. Because, like a real gamer I try and avoid childish system wars as much as possible. Let the children do that.

But…

You want to talk diversity? Does the Xbox have ANY strategy games? PS2: Dynasty Tactics, Ring of Red, Kessen I, II, Romance of the Three Kingdoms VII, VIII, Disgaea: HoD. Rhythm/dance? Xbox: none PS2: Frequency, Amplitude, DDR Max 1, 2, Mad Maestro, Gitaroo-Man. RPGs? The Xbox has about four; the only two worth playing are Morrowind and KotoR, both available on PC. Oh, and BG: DA, which is on every other system. PS2: 40+, including FF, Suikoden III (soon, IV), Wild Arms 3, Dark Cloud 2, Legaia 2, .hack series, XenoSaga, Shadow Hearts, etc. Best platformers? What for the Xbox? Blinx? LOL PS2: They just have the best- the Jak and R&C series. Racing? PGR 2' s quasi-realistic gameplay will get ANNIHLATED by GT 4. And funny...NFS: Hot Pursuit 2 had the superior version on the PS2...hmm...

So...uhh...what does the Xbox actually HAVE? FPSs and a few other good action games. I have both systems. I have 32 PS2 games and 12 Xbox games. I know that the Xbox generally has better ports, and that' s why I have Max Payne 2 and Prince of Persia on that system, but it goes FAR beyond ports.

I' ve leveled this argument at the most ardent of xboys, and all they can do is throw back the " xbox rulez, sony suxxorz" pathetic argument. I know games, and I know where systems are lacking. You can' t even acknowledge strengths and weaknesses, and I have NO idea why you felt the need to bash Sony when MS is three times worse.

What the fuck is this? MS is three times worse? Who cares? Play the game. The PS2 has superior games? Who cares? Play the games. That is why I ignored the challenges -- Play the games.

It’s cool that you and your group of homies are losing your minds over this, but grow up, really. Don’t ever challenging me to a system war again. Don’t even bring up MS nor Sony. Don’t try and promote the PS2 as the greatest thing in the world while claiming you’re doing it to “smack down X-Box fanboys.” A real gamer wouldn’t be concerned with X-Box fanboys.

If you and your 72 forum friends thinks this is the coolest thing in the world -- whatever. I challenge any of them to come to this forum and chat with me for a couple months.

It’s easier to cry fanboy from a distance, but those who know me know I’m not a fanboy. Only those with an agenda call me a fanboy. Some come my 72 friends. Come and chat. Let me show you just how much of a fanboy I really am.

Or are you chicken?

But don' t worry. You don' t care what other people think of you, right? That doesn' t matter to you, correct? Heh...one of my favorite parts was when you bragged about your " reputation," which gets considerably worse the more I dig back in time. LMAO

Do you even know what my Gamerweb reputation was? I was never considered a “fanboy trouncer” at Segaweb/Gamerweb. My reputation was for being a kind, insightful, and all around helpful person. THAT was my reputation at Segaweb. I was never a moulton or steveee where they flamed relentlessly. My rep at Segaweb wasn’t for debating PS2 fans at all.

You see Fathoms, you talk about, but you’re really saying nothing. You’re so desperate to prove I’m some sort of X-Box fanboy that you have not listened to anything I’ve talked about in this thread. Example:

--------------------------------------

“Frankly Fathoms, I’ve moved onto bigger things than defending system A over system B. Hell, even at Segaweb I mostly left the system wars to other people. But look at you – you’re still stuck in 1999. Still fighting the same war. Still looking to promote the PS2 first chance you get. Dude, I’m so far beyond you that you should be taking notes while warming my bath water.”

“Flat out, you got owned. Like, you say it' s all about the games -- and that' s why the PS2 is better than the X-Box -- Fathoms! LISTEN!!!!!!!!! We can see past your bull. Your talk about " just the games" is a front. I stated A LONG TIME AGO this wasn' t about PS2 vs X-Box. This thread is about YOU. YOU. YOU. How many times do I have to say that?! It' s always been about you and it never stopped being about you. Not Sony. Not Microsoft. YOU!”

“Just look at how quickly YOU turned this into a PS2 vs X-Box debate. Why? In a thread about hypocrisy you posted the most irrelevant argument.”

“In the end Fathoms, if you' re going to attack other members, do it with some truth and honesty. Take a step back, re-examine what was said. Rethink what you are thinking. Don' t be so quick to pass judgment on others without passing it on yourself. You can' t push your agenda on people, force them to conform, pretend you' re doing nothing wrong. It doesn' t fly. That is why I want this thread to stand as is, because I have nothing to hide. I’m not out to promote the X-Box, to “prove” why it’s superior to the PS2.”

“Even if I praise a PS2 game I' m a fanboy in your eyes. THAT' S why I could care less if you call me a fanboy. I' m looking forward to games on ALL systems (especially Nightshade which I can' t play because my brother is out of town with the PS2), but I' m not going to try and convince you of anything. You made up your mind about Segaweb members a LOOOOONG time ago and now we' re all fanboys in your eyes.”

“But I will say this about your last reply. You say it' s all about " the games"
Then why are you using the games to showcase the superiority of " the system"
If you were really about the games, wouldn' t your post be void of the word " PS2...." ?”

--------------------------------------

Do you see how many times I just tried to talk to you? Not talk about Microsoft. Not about Sony. Just about you. I tried really hard to keep this as a non-system war based thread, but that just seems like what you want to argue.

That’s cool, I guess. Perhaps system wars are still “your thang”. Either way, good for you. I was done with such idiotic notions a LONG time ago.

Did I take a lot of cheap shots at you… yeah…. oh yeah.

But that’s only because it’s you. I would be a lot more sincere to other posters (much like how I tried to be with you as you can see above). But even in my most desperate attempts to sway this from a MS/Sony debate, it’s obvious that --

I failed.

I’m not a PS2 vs X-Box debater. Deep down I’m really a sincere and helpful person. I simply know how you are and didn’t give you perhaps the respect you deserved -- perhaps. Yet you were still hypocritical in regards to your reply to Immortal, and that was the only thing I ever wanted to show in this thread.

Not X-Box > PS2
Not My rep > Your rep

Just that you were wrong in flaming Immortal, and I did that.

Fathoms, this thread is over. You tried really hard to upstage me. Show I’m sort of fanboy. Even make me look like a belligerent fool. But it ain’t flyin’.

You’ve tried, and perhaps to you you’re a winner… but in the process this forum lost so much more.

so sad…

The One, The only One
- The Lotus One

P.S. Yes I am serious about giving the link and inviting your friends here. I have no trouble talking sincerely to any REAL gamers who want to talk about games and NOT force a system war.

You really want to be sincere? Fine. Then let' s just go with where it began.

You said I flamed Immortal. Maybe you want to take a look at that post again. I never ONCE insulted him for the post, nor did I attack the beliefs. A common misconception among gamers these days is that the Sony " hype machine" is somehow far worse than Microsoft' s. You yourself said that they do just about the same thing. You asked the question in the subject, and I answered it, at the same time responding to Immortal' s post (becuase it was directly relevant to what my answer was going to be).

You turned around and called me a fanboy for saying that Microsoft' s " hype machine" is every bit as damaging as Sony' s, if not more, because they seem to take pride in the cosmetic rather than the substance. You also made an extraordinarily irritating post that flat-out said that the best games on Xbox are better than the best games on the PS2 (that " top-tier" comment, remember?). You did not say " graphically" in that opening statement, so not only is this entirely untrue (in terms of the overall games themselves), but after you had done this, you turned around and accused me of this very same thing.

The purpose of the lists of games, way back when, was to try to provide an actual foundation for debate. Flaming is pointless because it' s an argument that nobody can win. You clearly prefer the Xbox, so I gave you the chance to list games that explain why. I made lists that pointed out the obvious lack of diversity and " AAA" exclusives on the Xbox. These are shortcomings that MS themselves will admit to, just like everyone will agree that the PS2 is third in the graphics race, it was launched too soon, and it should' ve come with four controller ports.

I " attacked" no one. YOU NEED TO READ THAT POST AGAIN. You can say what you want, but the assumptions began with YOU. You threw out the fanboy comment first, and then went all-out anti-Sony, which you have been known to do NUMEROUS times in the past. Nothing was out of hand or out of line with my response. The increase in visual excellence is much more pronounced on the PS2, and ANY developer will admit this. Halo to Splinter Cell is nowhere near as big of a jump as the PS2 launch games and GT 4. That' s just simple fact, and is NOT an opinion. All this really means is that it' s obvious that the Xbox had better graphics from the start, but ALSO obvious that PS2 games are looking much better three years down the road, and three years from the Xbox launch, DoA 3 and Halo will still rank in the top 10, graphically, on the system.

Show me where I " lied" or " attacked" anyone. I want an exact statement. You assumed it all, and went from there. There' s no denying this, buddy boy.

Your move.

You said I flamed Immortal. Maybe you want to take a look at that post again. I never ONCE insulted him for the post,

Perhaps how YOU see it. Too others it can very easily be perceived as a flame.

You also made an extraordinarily irritating post that flat-out said that the best games on Xbox are better than the best games on the PS2 (that " top-tier" comment, remember?)

THAT WAS ABOUT GRAPHICS!!!!!!!!

Look!

-------------------------------------

You::: MS is pandering to the " new-age" gamer that only cares about one thing- graphics. The real truth that everyone hates to face up to is that ALL 3 systems have almost identical-looking software.

Me::: Yeah, if you want to compare ports and games from low-key developers. There are absolutely no games on the PS2 that can compete with the likes of DOA Ultimate, Halo 2, Panzer Dragoon Orta, etc etc. The upper tier of the X-Box demolishes the PS2.

-------------------------------------

You made a comment about graphics and I responded that the best of the X-Box is better than the best of the PS2. My lead was YOUR quote. I never imagined you would take it as I was talking about the quality of the games. Hell, the whole argument started with graphics. Never thought we changed the subject at any time. In my mind we were ALWAYS talking about graphics.

Let me give you an example of screwed up this all is

You: GT4 has really great looking graphics
Me: PGR3 looks better
You: You fanboy! PGR3 isn' t even out yet. How do you know PGR3 will be the better game!!!

Do you understand now? If you say GT4 looks good graphically, and I say PGR3 looks better, we' re still talking about graphics despite the fact that I didn' t flat out say the word [graphics] in my reply. How you managed to think I was suddenly talking about game quality is well beyond me.

You did not say " graphically" in that opening statement,

As you can see, your reply was about graphics and so I took that approach. Up until that port we were ONLY talking about graphics. The subject didn’t change. In fact, if you accurately read my first two replies to you, I never talk about game quality any time. I’m talking about graphics. The fact that I didn’t state that in the opening sentence of THAT single paragraph doesn’t mean I stopped talking about graphics. How can you not see this?

You turned around and called me a fanboy for saying that Microsoft' s " hype machine" is every bit as damaging as Sony' s

….I called you a fanboy for not straight out admitting that Sony and MS were doing the same thing.

The purpose of the lists of games, way back when, was to try to provide an actual foundation for debate.

But what debate? We were talking about graphics. You were WAY off base starting a system debate.

You clearly prefer the Xbox, so I gave you the chance to list games that explain why.

You asked me to match you, not to explain why I like the X-Box. That’s why I ignored it.

These are shortcomings that MS themselves will admit to, just like everyone will agree that the PS2 is third in the graphics race, it was launched too soon, and it should' ve come with four controller ports.

EX-MOTHERFUCKING-ACTLY!

I was talking about graphics the WHOLE time. I never stopped talking about the graphical comparisons. Our first 2-3 replies were about graphics (at least, in my mind we were talking about graphics).

and then went all-out anti-Sony, which you have been known to do NUMEROUS times in the past..

Which you know damn well is untrue. I’ve never been anti-Sony. I’ve never said stuff like “the PS2 blows.” “Sony sucks” etc etc. Even at Segaweb I was above that.

Stop grouping me with all the other fanboys you dealt with.

The increase in visual excellence is much more pronounced on the PS2, and ANY developer will admit this. Halo to Splinter Cell is nowhere near as big of a jump as the PS2 launch games and GT 4.

And Halo – Splinter Cell – PGR – PGR2 – Ninja Gaiden – Halo 2 (etc etc) is a big leap in my eyes.

And yes I’m talking about graphics.

That' s just simple fact, and is NOT an opinion.

A fact I never had a problem with.

Xbox launch, DoA 3 and Halo will still rank in the top 10, graphically, on the system.

Halo has already been surpassed IMO. DOA3 has been surpassed on a technical level (just look at the superior textures and lighting in Kakuto Chojin). But nothing can touch DOA’s artistic design. Artistic design can do a lot for graphics.

Show me where I " lied" or " attacked" anyone. I want an exact statement. You assumed it all,

Much like how you assumed I was talking about game quality when I was obviously talking about graphics. After several replies about JUST graphics, what made you think I suddenly jumped to game quality? Even when the quote I replied to SAID graphic in it?

It actually saddens my heart to think that this whole thread was started by a misunderstanding. You thinking I was talking about game quality when I was talking about game graphics.

Tis a sad day to call myself,

- The Lotus One

No, I was simply pointing out that all the things you said were rumours, and in fact, impossible, on the PS2. It would take a system with much higher specs to do what you said, which means either creative XBox programming or a powerful PC. I have nothing against PS2 except the fact that almost all its games are RPG, and I don' t really care for Japanese style RPG' s, just westeren (KOTOR, MORROWIND) Im sorry that my comment caused you to get dissed so badly, but let' s just put this in the past, because you 2 (Fathoms and Lotus) are 2 of the most respected forum posters.

You: GT4 has really great looking graphics
Me: PGR3 looks better
You: You fanboy! PGR3 isn' t even out yet. How do you know PGR3 will be the better game!!!

Uhh...I just looked through all these posts. Where did you ever mention PGR 3? And where did I say that GT 4 had " great graphics" ? All I said is that it will probably push the limits of the system even further. That' s it. I don' t recall anything about PGR 3, anywhere.

" I called you a fanboy for not straight out admitting that Sony and MS were doing the same thing"

You never said " same thing." You spent an entire post trying to tell me that Sony was WORSE. You didn' t start with " same thing," you downgraded to that later on.

" I was talking about graphics the WHOLE time. I never stopped talking about the graphical comparisons. Our first 2-3 replies were about graphics (at least, in my mind we were talking about graphics)."

You were, and still are, under the impression that " all top-tier" Xbox games look better than all the best-looking PS2 games. My reply was designed to, A. show you that that was basically incorrect in principle, and also to show that all I cared about was GAMES. It' s why I was turning this to games! Who GIVES A FLYING FU** ABOUT GRAPHICS if the gameplay sucks?! I was proving, with the game list, and your comment about " top-tier" graphics, that MS is FOCUSING on COSMETICS too much, and NOT on diversity and overall GAMEPLAY. Understand?

" Which you know damn well is untrue. I’ve never been anti-Sony. I’ve never said stuff like “the PS2 blows.” “Sony sucks” etc etc. Even at Segaweb I was above that."

It' s not " untrue." I never said you ripped Sony verbally or any chance you got. What I say is what everyone else says: if you DO have anything to say about them, it' s negative. Or, at least, 95% of the time. No, you don' t go out of your way to make posts like " Sony sucks" or whatever, but if its ever brought up and you contribute in any way, it' s almost always negative. That' s how I, and others, remember you, my friend. Maybe we' re wrong. Maybe we' re thinking of someone else. But you haven' t proven anything new here...

" And Halo – Splinter Cell – PGR – PGR2 – Ninja Gaiden – Halo 2 (etc etc) is a big leap in my eyes."

Yes, it' s a leap. But nowhere near the level of launch games to present games on PS2. Even the most ardent fans of Nintendo or Xbox will admit this, because the proof is not only right in front of you, but scientific as well. If you have three systems, two of which had VERY familiar hardware to developers, thus allowing them to access 90%+ of the system' s potential from day 1 (DEVELOPER QUOTE), and the third system basically alien to anything else on the planet, and developers only being able to access MAYBE half (50%) of the system' s potential from the start.....what do you expect will happen down the road? It' s just MATH, and it' s clearly seen in the games. Silent Hill 3 at LAUNCH? Nope. Fantavision.

" Halo has already been surpassed IMO. DOA3 has been surpassed on a technical level (just look at the superior textures and lighting in Kakuto Chojin). But nothing can touch DOA’s artistic design. Artistic design can do a lot for graphics."

Yes, I know. That' s why I said they' ll still be in the Top 10 visually. Do you see Wild Wild Racing or even SSX being in the top 10 visually on the PS2 right now? Or even in the top 25 or 50?

Immortal: I' m sorry that you think that. You may want to check the list of games from way back when that I posted. It goes far beyond RPGs, and if you' d read THIS, you' d see that developers are still quite a ways from finding all the little loopholes in the overly complicated PS2 hardware that will allow for better graphics. The same challenge is directed at you- look at PS2 launch games, and look at them now. Then look at Xbox launch games, and now. Let your eyes tell you the truth.

And my OVERALL point was that NONE of what you' re talking about matters. The gameplay is always most important; graphics are just a nice bonus. Like a wise man once said, " you can' t polish a turd."

Uhh...I just looked through all these posts. Where did you ever mention PGR 3? And where did I say that GT 4 had " great graphics" ? All I said is that it will probably push the limits of the system even further. That' s it. I don' t recall anything about PGR 3, anywhere.

PGR3 was a hypothetical question I used just for that example. There is no such thing as a PGR3 (yet). You can replace PGR3 with Rallisport Challenge 2 and you have the same basic idea.

You never said " same thing." You spent an entire post trying to tell me that Sony was WORSE. You didn' t start with " same thing," you downgraded to that later on.

I never once said that Sony was “worse” I know Immortal did, but not me. I merely pointed out Sony has done the same. You took it as “worse.”

You were, and still are, under the impression that " all top-tier" Xbox games look better than all the best-looking PS2 games.

And when I look at games like Halo 2, Fable, DOA Ultimate, etc, the X-Box’s top tier does look better. If you disagree, fine, but that doesn’t make your opinion any more valid than mines as how close in graphics a person believes the two systems are is subjective.

that MS is FOCUSING on COSMETICS too much,

I don’t think it’s fair to say MS is focusing only on cosmetics. There’s no real evidence of this at all. Especially since many X-Box games don’t meet the graphical expectations of the system.

and NOT on diversity and overall GAMEPLAY. Understand?

And the Gamecube lacks the diversity of the X-Box. But no one is saying Nintendo is focusing only on graphics. System diversity can be linked to many many many more things than just graphics. Something that is for an entirely different thread as the lengths upon which it can be discussed can get quite long.

It' s not " untrue." I never said you ripped Sony verbally or any chance you got. What I say is what everyone else says: if you DO have anything to say about them, it' s negative. Or, at least, 95% of the time.

But how do you know this to be so when we haven’t posted at the same forums for years? Tell me, are these are positives?

artistically unimpressed with PGR2

no excitement for GTA on xbox

co*k stroking GT3

my disappointment of games on both platforms

You seem quick to point out any negatives I say about a game on the PS2 while ignoring the negatives I say about X-Box games as well.

But do you see a pattern in all of that? I’m not talking about the companies. I don’t talk about companies. I talk about the games baby.

The last thing I want to do is start praising hardware developers. That’s lame.

No, you don' t go out of your way to make posts like " Sony sucks" or whatever, but if its ever brought up and you contribute in any way, it' s almost always negative. That' s how I, and others, remember you, my friend. Maybe we' re wrong. Maybe we' re thinking of someone else. But you haven' t proven anything new here...

Perhaps I don’t say much about Sony is because I talk very little about hardware developers…. hmmmm???

Like, when I started that Killzone thread back in November, was I excited about a game or was I excited about Sony?

Yes, it' s a leap. But nowhere near the level of launch games to present games on PS2.

…. Yes, I know. That' s why I said they' ll still be in the Top 10 visually. Do you see Wild Wild Racing or even SSX being in the top 10 visually on the PS2 right now? Or even in the top 25 or 50?

But a leap nonetheless. That was my point. And I still consider the PS2 lacking behind the X-Box in visuals.

So?

Even the most ardent fans of Nintendo or Xbox will admit this, because the proof is not only right in front of you, but scientific as well. If you have three systems, two of which had VERY familiar hardware to developers, thus allowing them to access 90%+ of the system' s potential from day 1 (DEVELOPER QUOTE), and the third system basically alien to anything else on the planet, and developers only being able to access MAYBE half (50%) of the system' s potential from the start.....what do you expect will happen down the road? It' s just MATH, and it' s clearly seen in the games. Silent Hill 3 at LAUNCH? Nope. Fantavision.

Developers quotes? You mean like when Itagaki said he tapped the PS2 when he made DOA2 Hardcore? Sorry if I don’t have much faith in develop quotes.

Forget the math, and forget the developers. I believe that which I can see.

The gameplay is always most important;

.....DUH!

But this whole thread started with Immortal talking about graphics. If you didn’t care to discuss graphics (which really isn’t high on my list either), then you shouldn’t have replied.

The One, The only One
- The Lotus One

" And when I look at games like Halo 2, Fable, DOA Ultimate, etc, the X-Box’s top tier does look better. If you disagree, fine, but that doesn’t make your opinion any more valid than mines as how close in graphics a person believes the two systems are is subjective."

You' re talking about three or four games. When you say " top-tier," it should mean about 20 games. And not all of the top 20 Xbox games look better than the best looking PS2 games. Not a chance in hell.

" And the Gamecube lacks the diversity of the X-Box. "

Not really. They' re both equally lacking. They both lack RPGs, strategy, rhythm/dance/alternative, etc. In fact, with the exception of some PC ports on Xbox, they both have essentially the same library, except that one is designed for a younger age group.

" But do you see a pattern in all of that?"

The only pattern I see is that you' re a whole heck of a lot quicker to leap to the defense of the Xbox than anything else. And even quicker to point out Sony' s shortcomings. That' s all I' m saying.

" But a leap nonetheless. That was my point. And I still consider the PS2 lacking behind the X-Box in visuals."

I never said it wasn' t a leap, did I? I never said that the PS2 visuals weren' t lacking, did I? No, I said they were third. My point, which you refuse to acknowledge as fact, is that the leap is MUCH greater on the PS2 side. You can choose to believe every last developer on earth, and science, for that matter, or you can just believe the truth. I never once said this meant that the PS2 was now better than the Xbox graphically. The LEAP is greater. Far greater.

Oh, and graphics are not entirely subjective. Nobody in their right mind would say that the graphics in War Gods are as good as the graphics in DoA 3. Nobody would say that Pulse Racer looked as good as Splinter Cell. Not everything is gray; some things are indeed black and white. What is more appealing to the eye is opinion; which is of a finer quality is NOT.

And I never attacked anyone, and there' s no way to prove that I did. Nor did I lie anywhere. All of that is stuff you just tossed out there for the heck of it, because of how you " construed" the situation. How is that my fault?

You' re talking about three or four games. When you say " top-tier," it should mean about 20 games. And not all of the top 20 Xbox games look better than the best looking PS2 games. Not a chance in hell.

Perhaps in your opinion. I see different.

And top tier doesn' t mean 20 titles. Top tier is " the best of" . The best of can be merely 2, 3, or 4 games. Not " the best of out of X amount of games."

Not really. They' re both equally lacking. They both lack RPGs, strategy, rhythm/dance/alternative, etc. In fact, with the exception of some PC ports on Xbox, they both have essentially the same library, except that one is designed for a younger age group.

The GC lacks any real fighting games, racing, is severely lacking in quality action titles as well as RPG’s. The GC is definitely last in terms of diversity (keepig quality in mind). Tons of survival horror games though thanks to Capcom. Overall, if you want to talk diversity it’s PS2 > X-Box > GC.

….but why are we talking about systems again?

which you refuse to acknowledge as fact, is that the leap is MUCH greater on the PS2 side.

…but I don’t disagree with that….

I just don’t think it’s important.

Oh, and graphics are not entirely subjective. Nobody in their right mind would say that the graphics in War Gods are as good as the graphics in DoA 3.

Whoa… That’s way too extreme of a case. A better example would be people who think VF4 Evo looks better than DOA3.

Graphics are indeed subjective as artistic views vary from people to people. What you may think looks amazing may only be sub par to someone else.

Perfectly summarized with the quote

“Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

And I never attacked anyone, and there' s no way to prove that I did.

Perhaps in your eyes, but your reply to Immortal can be read as extremely flammable. Especially when you toss out retorts like “MS is three times worse”.

In terms of graphics

X-Box > PS2

Do you agree or disagree?

I agree.

The difference between Xbox graphics vs. PS2 graphics aren' t as pronounced as some people would like to believe.

Do you agree or disagree?

Do you agree or disagree?

I agree. And the PS2 actually beats the X-Box in terms of producing particle effects. But I believe the X-Box has a definite graphic advantage.

P.S.

In terms of graphics I rank the systems as X-Box > PS2 > Gamecube.

I realize the Gamecube is capable of great graphics, but I can’t help it if I’m more impressed with PS2 graphics over Gamecube.

Then I' m leaving this here.

This is a tad ridiculous isn' t it?

These forums are meant for proper games discussion not three pages of PS2 vs Xbox!

Which is a shame because was quite a good topic starter... what aspect of the industry would you like to see the back of?

Personally I hate the way that so many nice human beings (which I' m sure most of us are in the real world) turn in to utter assholes when they get together on gaming forums! People on Gaming Age forums for example, with exception to a few, all they do is bitch and bully! It' s really pathetic. You don' t see this descent in other kinds of forums, not to the same extent. Why can' t people just be respectful to each other online?

And by the way, I' m not sure who Gossi_the_dog is, but in all my dealings with Rockstar/Take2/Gathering/whatever else they publish under, they have never held review code ransom to guaranteed review scores, not once... and this goes for both the New York HQ and London office.

I know a couple of publishers who have paid cash for scores, or demanded a score for an exclusive, but this only really happens with magazines (generally speaking) where a review score is a PR' s job (for some inexplicable reason)...:

Another industry issue that gets to me sometimes is how, globally and across the board, publishers always give priority to print media over online. When you consider that all those reading about games online are the EARLY ADOPTERS and OPINION FORMERS, who will tell their friends what games to buy, and not to mention that NO GAMES MAGAZINES can compete with the audience of even modestly sized games audiences online, it really is a bit of a joke, and it' s all because PR departments and the agencies they employ are obsessed with cutting out and keeping press cuttings from games magazines to show their boss (or whatever). PR exists to get nice quotes and scores that the publisher then shows to retail to buy units. It' s not like it was in the nineties, because the audience is broader, MOST gamers today don' t give enough of a toss to read games mags or read about games online - they buy what their mates recommend or what they hear about, or what looks good, or what their kids ask for after a friends recommendation. We, the minority of gamers, are the ones who go around recommending the games to our friends, and we know what we' re talking about because we love games and read about them online every day. Any publicist will admit that word of mouth is the most effective marketing tool and it' s underused because they all have hards-ons for magazines. I really hope this changes over the next few years - certainly some publishers are beginning to shake off the outdated approach and work with online media a lot more closely than ever before, particularly in the US and now gradually in Europe too.