OMG Killzone 2 not possible on the 360

And i was hoping for a port, dammit!!

Killzone 2 Only Possible On PS3 Say Guerrilla News


Could the SCEE first party developers be digging their own grave of Killzone 2 over-hype???

According to the latest issue of Official PlayStation Magazine, Guerrilla big-wigs are openly suggesting that the Xbox 360 couldn' t handle a game like Killzone 2. Well, they would, wouldn' t they?

Guerrilla' s Managing Director Herman Hulst stated of being able to develop exclusively for the PlayStation 3: " It' s a huge benefit. If you' re developing a game on multiple platforms there are restrictions you always have to take into consideration.

" We are taking huge advantage of the architecture of PS3. I firmly believe that what we' ve shown we can get out of that machine would be difficult, if not impossible, to deliver on a competing machine."

On the same issue of developing Killzone 2 on multiple platforms, Killzone 2 Producer Steven Ter Heide made the following comments: " I would say [It' s] impossible. We literally can' t do this stuff on any machine other than the PS3."

Ter Heide went on to point out the advantages of Blu-ray on the PS3: " To make it simple, the Xbox 360 doesn' t have SixAxis or Blu-ray. PlayStation 3 does. And for us that' s a really big thing. The level you' ve just seen is 2GB. We really need Blu-ray to make the game. I don' t know how you could fit it on Xbox 360 without taking some shortcuts."

In fairness to Guerrilla, other third party developers such as Epic have indirectly criticised the limitations of the Xbox 360' s DVD format before but, when all' s said and done, would you expect Guerrilla to say anything different? Guerrilla' s comments are comparable to Bungie stating that no system other than the Xbox 360 could run Halo 3, a claim that' s a little salacious at best.

reading this, what does Guerilla now about making mp games, havent they always been Sony' s lapdog?

I find it kinda funny that they are naming the dvd drive of the 360 as a hindrance since its not on the PC, you wont see HDdvd standard on pcs for years

In it' s current form i' m sure it couldn' t fit on a DVD9, but then i' m sure they' re using uncompressed sound, something which would pump up the space needed considerably.

I doubt they' re talking about the game assets or anything like that. It' s just vague PR bullshit.

Yeah it is, its kinda silly that they are throwing dumb comments like that around, i think devs should start to grow up. But then again, some people do fall for it!

The only way the additional space could be used " properly" and actually mean anything would be if every individual item, surface and model had it' s own unique texture map. No repeating of brick/soil/wood/cloth/whatever textures, but all different, even if only marginally (because dirt' s dirt right!?).

In a reasonably sized game world you' d start to need more space than DVD9 provides.

The problem with this in general is the expense and time it would take, and the problem for PS3 specifically is you' d need a very robust texture streaming process in place to get them all through the buffer quickly enough to be render a complete scene, and i' m not sure it;d be possible right now without the texture " quality" being complete ass.

Dunno why we ever need these threads.

Of course a sony dev will say that, like a 360 would like likewise.

GG can' t do killzone on 360 - fact, it' s a first party sony game and if im not mistaken, Killzone belongs to Sony, so of course they can' t do it on 360 ;P

Anything can be tweak and modified to fit on another system. Porting this as is to 360 wouldn' t work, but it would be doable to make the game ground up for the 360 just as good, and maybe not as good but working on a port - depending how games built heavily around ps3 architechture port over.

NiGHTS into Dreamcast

Well the point is that codeshops working on exclusive PS3 games have repeatedly said that due to the nature of Blu-Ray the game' s aren' t possible on 360.

We had it with Resistance, the game that was supposed to define why Blu-ray is needed, then found out that the game took up so much space because they used dummy files for padding to push the data towards the edge of the disk so as to speed up the read times. Their previous comments because null and void.

More recently we' ve had it with Heavenly Sword and Lair because the " levels take up so much space" , and ofcourse that' s bullshit too. It' s just the uncompressed sound.

With so many of the " big" PS3 titles disappointing after being hyped to hell, don' t you think they really need to change tactics rather than repeatedly focusing on the " need" for a next gen DVD drive in the system?

I love Blu-Ray but it' s hard to take a developer seriously when they' re coming out with this kind of useless garbage. Killzone will be fantastic, of that i have no doubt. What they need to be doing is what they' ve been doing and what Epic did with Gears and that' s to let the game and the technology speak for itself.

Killzone will look fantastic, of that i have no doubt

Fixed it for you!

Its hard to tell whether the game will be great yet. It still has to have some decent AI and a storyline worthfollowing.

Time well tell, but lets hope they manage to live up to the hype!

At the end of the day anything that comes out of a first party-dev' s mouth is advertising for the product.

I agree Majik, I wish they would stop the blu-ray makes it this or that and just let the games sell themselves. You hear a dev say it and just want to turn off your hearing because they all say it - Thinking we all buy that it' s such a HUGE deal.

NiGHTS into Dreamcast

Maybe they actually found uses for the SPE' s. In any case the game looks stunning. It' s one of those titles that are a must have.

Its hard to tell whether the game will be great yet. It still has to have some decent AI and a storyline worthfollowing.

FPS on the PS-Triple pad? Ewww..... lets hope M/KB support for this one, theres no way a FPS can be good on the sony pad.

I dont want to celebrate, I want to sell you hate.

I don' t like the 360 pad I would rather play a fps on the ps2 controller any day

I don' t like the 360 pad I would rather play a fps on the ps2 controller any day

But youre also mildly retarded, so you dont matter.

I dont want to celebrate, I want to sell you hate.

Resistance plays pretty well with the SixAxis, and Black on PS2 was fine. They just have to get the sensitivities for the sticks right.


EDIT: what i don' t like is the L2 and R2 " triggers" . If they use them for ' firing your primary weapon' i' ll die.

I say you have to be physically handicapped to use the SixAxis for FPS games!

I say you have to be mentaly handicapped to use the SixAxis for FPS games!

Fixed

I dont want to celebrate, I want to sell you hate.

The stated problem with having too little space on a DVD is real and not simply a marketing gimmick by the Sony supporting developers.

For games that are built up by levels that unfold in a fixed chronological pattern starting with level nr 1 all the way up to the last the Blu-ray advantage over DVD is exaggerated. When ever a DVD-disc runs out of space it’s simply a matter of getting up and change the disc to the next one containing the following sequential levels. Then continue with your game. The biggest games so far on the PS3 would require 3 DVD discs on the 360. Hardly too much of a problem. So from a disc space point of view there should be nothing to prevent Killzone 2 from being spread out over multiple discs on the 360. As long as Killzone 2 contains no file breaking the 9GB limit that is.

But what about non-sequential games that unfold in a non-fixed chronological pattern that break the 9GB limit of a DVD disc? Well they are not possible on the 360 unless you as a gamer find it acceptable to approach your 360 and swap discs every time you happen to enter an area of the game that happens to be stored on a disc that isn’t in the tray at that given moment. And this is exactly the problem Rockstar games has run into with Grand Theft Auto 4 on the 360. That game is supposed to contain a city that happens to take up more than 9GB (in its original form) all the while the access to those “more than 9GB” has to remain completely random at any given time. So I think you get the idea and problem here. The problem isn’t that the game is supposed to contain more data than one DVD can hold. The problem is that this game needs to retain random access to any part within one single file that is larger than 9GB. Imagine driving between different parts of the city while having to stand up and swap the discs every time the currently used disc doesn’t contain the information needed. While playing through the game you might have to swap discs back and forth up to a hundred times or more and at any given moment. This 9GB limit has been hampering the whole production of that game. The same goes for any game that needs to up hold random access capacity spanning the full space available on the disc: RPGs, MMORPGs, online shooters ([please wait while all 360 users are swapping discs: loading will commence in 30 seconds]). Not good. A large hard disc would have prevented this from happening like it does on the PCs. That way you could simply buffer a very large game making more than the 9GB limit of DVD fully random access. But you can’t do that on the 360 since every user doesn’t have a hard disc. So fully random access games spanning more than 9GB will never be possible on the 360. The 360 itself has no problems spanning much more than 9GB of fully random access data, just like the PS3. The 360 storage medium how ever isn’t capable of supporting it.
The PS3 can support 50GB of fully random access non-sequential game data due to Blu-ray. And that’s a very huge advantage over 360. And it doens' t take a rocket scientist to figure out that Microsoft isn' t exactly truthful when they say Blu-ray has no advantage over DVD conserning what types of games can be handled on the two. For some games more than 9GB storage capacity isn' t simply a convenience. It' s mandatory.
And further more is read speed on the PS3 not limited to Blu-ray access times or stream speed since every thing can be buffered on the mandatory hard disc. This makes the read speed on PS3 potentially much faster than what is possible on the 360.

Wow, great post, makes sense. You don' t post here very often. Were are you from?

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And further more is read speed on the PS3 not limited to Blu-ray access times or stream speed since every thing can be buffered on the mandatory hard disc. This makes the read speed on PS3 potentially much faster than what is possible on the 360.

360 can do this too, why do people think the 360 has to have a HDD on all units to support this feature? In Oblivion for example, the game supports using the HDD to cache game data for faster loading times. If you don' t have a HDD you can still play the game but you have to endure longer loading times. Having a HDD on all units vs. some units is meaningless. A game can support a HDD for the consoles with it and not support it for the games that do not.

Because some games need an HDD so that they don' t have unbearably long load times, oblivion is not one of those games, the load times are fine without an HDD, not all games are created the same as oblivion, which is a fairly small game anyway I' m pretty sure it doesn' t even fill up a regular DVD5. Some games also need an HDD for function in general, not just for faster load times.

([please wait while all 360 users are swapping discs: loading will commence in 30 seconds])

That makes no sense. They would divide the single from the multiplayer before they split the multiplayer.

oblivion, which is a fairly small game anyway I' m pretty sure it doesn' t even fill up a regular DVD5

Thats the thing. With a game like Oblivion(and soon to be Mass Effect), its been proved that DVD is enough for now. Devs who need more than 1DVD either are doing CGI or need to figure out what compression is. (Or put padding on the disc. Im looking at Resistance here )

Some games also need an HDD for function in general, not just for faster load times.

Exactly. I think MS should drop the core, make the hdd mandatory, give all 20GB ownwers a 120GB in exchange for their old HDD, and give the 20GB to the Core users. No standard HDD is more of a problem than no HD optical medium.

I dont want to celebrate, I want to sell you hate.

The biggest games so far on the PS3 would require 3 DVD discs on the 360

That has been shot down several times, its nothing but sony propaganda and uncompressed sound and extreme use of FMV.

Nice try though!

The biggest games so far on the PS3 would require 3 DVD discs on the 360.

There' s no game on PS3 that has assets (sans uncompressed audio/video) totaling more than the space on a DVD9. There' s also no game on 360, with the exception of Blue Dragon (which uses HD video), that spans more than one disc.

But what about non-sequential games that unfold in a non-fixed chronological pattern that break the 9GB limit of a DVD disc?

That game is supposed to contain a city that happens to take up more than 9GB (in its original form) all the while the access to those “more than 9GB” has to remain completely random at any given time.

The problem is that this game needs to retain random access to any part within one single file that is larger than 9GB.

You' re over complicating things.

You certainly have a point, but as long as the game assets don' t total more than 9GB then the only issue would be load times. The issue Rockstar are facing is that not every 360 has a harddrive and they want to support all models. Unfortunately that might not be possible and the game may " require" a harddrive.

MS will be providing developers with their newest compression technology early next year and it wouldn' t surprise me if it was first used in GTA IV.

Unfortunately that might not be possible and the game may " require" a harddrive.

Unfortunately? No, its about damn time. If you bought a Core, you either should be shot, or shouldve waited till you could afford a Pro, simple as that. I mean, FFS, a Pro was only $60 more(you had to buy a $40 memory card with the core, so that was almost half the difference).

TBH, it seem(s)(ed) like a step backwards for MS to go from every console with an HDD and saying it was needed(xbox) to " offering a choice" (360).

I dont want my gaming experience crippled because some little kid couldnt convince his parents to buy a Pro or a HDD

I dont want to celebrate, I want to sell you hate.

Wow, great post, makes sense. You don' t post here very often. Were are you from?

Thanks. I’m from Sweden.

And further more is read speed on the PS3 not limited to Blu-ray access times or stream speed since every thing can be buffered on the mandatory hard disc. This makes the read speed on PS3 potentially much faster than what is possible on the 360.

360 can do this too, why do people think the 360 has to have a HDD on all units to support this feature? In Oblivion for example, the game supports using the HDD to cache game data for faster loading times. If you don' t have a HDD you can still play the game but you have to endure longer loading times. Having a HDD on all units vs. some units is meaningless. A game can support a HDD for the consoles with it and not support it for the games that do not.

Yes you are right the 360 can do this as well but the problem is still that not everyone has a hard disc. This means that if you aren’t careful with what type of game you’re making those without a HD might have to endure very long and frequent loading times for games that require constant reads. This is hampering to the process of using the HD for games on the 360. And just like with the example of 50GB vs. 9GB there are game build instances where you simply need a HD in order for things to stay fluid. So developers aren’t keen on building a game that truly needs it since a large part of the market would be left out in the cold.

([please wait while all 360 users are swapping discs: loading will commence in 30 seconds])

That makes no sense. They would divide the single from the multiplayer before they split the multiplayer.

Actually this problem is what has caused the map problems (on line) for Unreal tournament 3 on 360. So yes it makes sense. If you want to be able to play all maps online then you’ll need a HD to buffer those that don’t fit on one single DVD since swapping discs between different maps isn’t accaptable.

quote:

The biggest games so far on the PS3 would require 3 DVD discs on the 360

That has been shot down several times, its nothing but sony propaganda and uncompressed sound and extreme use of FMV.

Nice try though!

Well that wasn' t the point now was it? But since you brought it up... try putting uncompressed sound and the likes on a DVD for a large game and see what happens. What? Uncompressed sound doesn' t matter? I thought you might.

Cheers mate

Many codeshops have been using the " excuse" that they don' t want to use lossy compression algorithms because they' re striving to create the best visually looking game they possibly can. But while i believe yes uncompressed sound, video, textures et al are great and everything, they haven' t yet been " proven" superior to their lossy compressed counterparts.

You do realize you sound like N64 fanboys from 10 years ago?

9GB space limit is an issue, period. Get over it.

9GB space limit is an issue, period. Get over it.

No it' s not.

The space limit on the DVD9 is not what the problem is, the problem is MS still offering the Core. If you get rid of the core, then everyone who owns a 360 has a HDD and therefore all of a sudden the space on the DVD9 is not a problem anymore.

Devs either owned my Sony(Guerilla) or making exclusive games on the PS3 will take this, and turn it around to make it look as though the 360 is so far below the PS3 to the consumer. Now the uneducated consumer will believe the PR BS, but the educated consumer will know that if MS does get rid of the Core, then the space on the DVD9 is not a problem anymore. Everyone owns a PC so you know this to be true.

I do have one question though. If these PS3 games are taking up so much space, and are so huge, then why are the gameplay time(hours of gameplay) no different? If this is a stupid question I am sorry, but I understand most of this but not why a game can be so huge and need such a larger capacity disc, but not be a longer game.

9GB space limit is an issue, period. Get over it.

Its not really.

Mark Rein is the only one with a legitimate complaint, but how many levels in a FPS game are actually used? Barely 50% usually!

Yes it is.

You guys are ***ing pathetic. Developers know more about making games than any of you dumb ***s here, if they say space is an issue, then space is an issue. And no they are not being payed off by Sony to say that, the mentality of some of you guys here is just plain stupid.

Mark Rein is a PR monkey. He knows fuck all about game development.

PS3 is the lead (console) platform for UTIII and his pro Blu-Ray comments are PR bullshit.

If the assets fit on the disk then there' s no issue other than possible longer loading times, and i' d love to see a game that doesn' t use uncompressed sound or video that takes up 9GB.

Yes it is.

You guys are ***ing pathetic. Developers know more about making games than any of you dumb ***s here, if they say space is an issue, then space is an issue. And no they are not being payed off by Sony to say that, the mentality of some of you guys here is just plain stupid.

While more space is always a good thing, it doesnt mean its needed.

You can choose to fall for the propaganda you are fed, it just makes you look stupid, but we all know thats true anyway!

The ones feeding you propaganda are MS aligned developers.

Why does every neutral developer prefer more space, and everyone aligned to MS just so happens to think DVD9 is actually more than they need, lol?

Can someone point me in the direction of this endless stream fo complaints for more space? I' ve seen very few neutral developers if any at all complain about it. Actually I can' t remember the last time hearing that 9gigs was a major issue. The only people fighting for or against it are the gamers themsevles as far as I can tell.

Why does every neutral developer prefer more space, and everyone aligned to MS just so happens to think DVD9 is actually more than they need, lol?

More space is as i said always good. The devs like it so they can go lazy with compression, maybe use one disk for the extra content.

But for games it isnt needed. They say it is, but no one has proved it yet.

The cost of a next gen drive isnt justified yet. The only reason Sony stuffed it in the PS3 is to trojan it out to people, i think they realize if they dont win the format war they will have a major problem.

Can someone point me in the direction of this endless stream fo complaints for more space? I' ve seen very few neutral developers if any at all complain about it. Actually I can' t remember the last time hearing that 9gigs was a major issue. The only people fighting for or against it are the gamers themsevles as far as I can tell.

There is nothing to fight or argue over. As long as 9GB is all you need for your game then there is no problem. When the requirements surpass the limit you are how ever in for some kind of trouble. You will have to compress data which in the end will take you so far into lossy terretory that it will start to show regardless of whether it' s about visual or audiable content. Yes GTA 4 will work on 360. But its nearing the limit of how much data can be sqeezed onto 9GB of storage. With GTA 5 Rockstar is surely out to up the ante over the previous installment. Will they be able to sqeeze even more data onto those 9GB of storage when it comes to that? I don' t know.
The 360 and PS3 are hardly at the end of their life cycles and when games get more advanced and containing more content than what we have seen so far then 9GB will not be enough in some occasions. And the reason we haven' t seen many games truly break the 9GB limit is because one of the major consoles doesn' t support it. PCs are how ever starting to truly move into territory far above 9GB. So will PS3. What the 360 will do when that truly happens... when you can' t get even compressed files to fit onto 9GB is anyone' s guess.

Yes GTA 4 will work on 360. But its nearing the limit of how much data can be sqeezed onto 9GB of storage. With GTA 5 Rockstar is surely out to up the ante over the previous installment. Will they be able to sqeeze even more data onto those 9GB of storage when it comes to that? I don' t know.

Do you know what compression means?

You have to be a fidelity expert to tell the difference between a MP3 and a cd if the compression is done right, also are you going to notice that when the action in the game is going on?

In addition compressed textures speed up loadtimes.

I have yet to see a PC game spanning over a single DVD.

In the case of all single player games, its not going to kill anyone changing cd halfway through the game.

Time will tell if it was necesarry but my guess its not

Ship the game on 2 discs ? ;)

EDIT: I was adressing Utgardaloki, of course.

Face it. Blu-ray gives a huge advantage. Games have so far not exceeded the storage limit of DVD9 simply because the devs have let the development become limited by it.
Now when Blu-ray offers more space developers can allow themselves to use space more freely so in time we will see a increasing need for more storage.
Some linear games can be put on several discs but in games where you might have to travel through the entire game world, switching discs won' t be very convenient. I think the PS3 is all about convenience. Everything from the free online and the silent cooling system to the slot loaded discs and the wi-fi.

Propaganda? No, it' s common sense.

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ORIGINAL: Evilkiller

Ship the game on 2 discs ? ;)

EDIT: I was adressing Utgardaloki, of course.

No because as he already correctly pointed out; in a game like GTA where the world isn' t linear and chronological, swapping between discs to move between one part of the city and another just isn' t pratical.

They' ll just use high ratio compression and it' ll be fine.

I' m interested to see whether the PC version of UTIII is multi-DVD. I guess we' ll find out in November.