And that the Earth is only 5000 yaers old?

it' s never written in the coran, the earth is 5000 old what bullshit is that, it' s not in the coran ... as for the earth if flat, dude didn' t i ask you to watch that video, precisely in that video Ahmed deedat clearly said that in the coran it is said the earth is rounded and not at any shape but like an egg, go and see it. it seems like this scholar has answered you many times but i guess you have no time to see that bullshit.

ORIGINAL: Abasoufiane

OMG can' t you guys just get it , i' m not talking about what is best , i' m talking about the style of the langage used in Coran, it' s no simple arabic, it is masterfully written, i' m talking about the beauty of the writing something that cannot be done until today! i' m not talkinga bout the content of the information but merely about the quality of the language, that' s like skeakspear to u in english but waaay better in arabic. i really hope you get what i mean now.

So you' re saying that if I read the Coran, I HAVE to believe it' s divine because of how well it' s written.

What if I don' t think it' s written well at all?

Nooo i didn' t say to believe in the coran because it is well written i should be dumb as fuck if say so, i' m just saying this for greater reflection and to help you believe, You will not find out about the style i' m talking about since you don' t speak arabic, only people who speak arabic well can feel the style and we are quiet a lot in fact, all of the muslims think the exact same thing and NOT because they taught us so ...

all muslim agree on one thing that the Coran is written in a very very beautiful but unlikely manner, should i remind you again and again that God defies humans to bring soemthing with the same quality in writing ? this is a very important point you should remember.

ORIGINAL: Abasoufiane

OMG can' t you guys just get it , i' m not talking about what is best , i' m talking about the style of the langage used in Coran, it' s no simple arabic, it is masterfully written, i' m talking about the beauty of the writing something that cannot be done until today! i' m not talkinga bout the content of the information but merely about the quality of the language, that' s like skeakspear to u in english but waaay better in arabic. i really hope you get what i mean now.

Well there was plenty of Arabic poetry before the Koran was written, however when looking at Wikipedia for some stuff the best quote I found was:

" It was the early poems' importance to Islamic scholarship, though, which would lead to their preservation. Not only did the poems illuminate life in the early years of Islam and its antecedents but they would also prove the basis for the study of linguistics of which the Qur' an was regarded as the pinnacle"

So there were plenty of poets who could have written the Koran at the time.

Abu Nuwas, one of the most famous arabic poets was openly homosexual, and by today' s standards, a pedophile. Some of the most beautiful poetry he offered up was based on his relationships with young lovers. It' s well worth looking into if you' re at all interested and there are plenty of good books on the subject!

Sorry Iad but i' m feeling like i' m repeating my posts it seems people skip posts... well i understand they are quiet long but still the debat is important so ... anyway

i DID say that at the time there were excellent poets in arabic, very very respectful and their poems are alive untile today, but that' s the whooole point my friend right there, in the Coran God defies all humans with their poets to bring a verse like the coran , something with that quality , and he says you won' t be able to... i repeat what god says YOU WON' T BE ABLE TO.

Now this is one of the point why i love the coran and why i respect allah, you feel the true power in his hands, he doesn' t sound sissy like in christianity (i' m soo sorry no offence but that' s how i fell about it, stuff like where are u adam or " i love you" ) don' t seem godly to me... i' m just spaking my mind here so sorry if i offended christians here... In the Coran God sounds fearful but stil merciful in many verses, he is sarcastic of disbelievers and DOES NOT negotiate , abide to the rules or go to hell that' s it, well ok i' m exagerating there are many things taken into consideration but if you don' t believe in god good luck with that... the way he wrote the Coran is Godly and if you do understand arabic you will now exactly what i' m talking about ... there are many stories that show how wise GOD is.

look , i never wanted to preach about islam, forget about all that i think i' m not qualified to go deep into the subject, but all what i have said is True about islam, that' s what we think , that' s what is written and that' s what we believe.


READ


My only concern now and i don' t know why but man i can' t understand how they can be soo sure that God does not exist, 100% with a blunt face... most people on the earth believe in God, you do know that, now among this masse there are many and sooo many great minds , wise minds and geniuses don' t you think so? because man if we believe in something that YOU DO THINK it' s 100% incorrect , then one of us is ignorant, einstein is ignorant and dumb because he believes in something stupid, for you it' s sooo clear that god does not exist (uhum 100% uhum) that anybody who believes in god is stupid or ignorant... so that makes einstein stupid , cousteau stupid , all thos scientists stupid , all those scholars stupid, me stupid , eddie stupid and you my majesty VX , nitro and all your likes , you are one the most intelligent men on earth , it must be, the truth is in front of you and man we can' t see it we are so blind... it is clear that the universe was never been created and everything is just random... Congratulation

So, reading the coran in arabic would help reinforce my faith because it is written in a style mankind cannot duplicate. (I think that' s what you' re saying)

But every religion would say the same thing. If you ask a Christian why he believes in Christ, he will always refer to the bible. Well, of course the bible reinforces christianity, that' s it' s purpose.

My question is, why should I read the book if I don' t believe it offers me anything? If I don' t have that initial faith in Islam, Christianity, Buddism, or any other religion what would be the point of delving into the text?

It' s true that there is wisdom in all faiths, but how do I select one without diminishing the others? For that reason, all religions are flawed. They claim to be the exclusive truth, but they don' t answer everything.

I believe existence is too vast for a book and a bunch of rituals. Religions are nice, and they satisfy a basic human need, but they aren' t necessary and they often cause more trouble than they are worth.
I seek a better understanding of the universe than any religion created by mankind could possibly offer me. Maybe I' ll die just as lost as ever, but I would rather search than to simply accept.

But every religion would say the same thing. If you ask a Christian why he believes in Christ, he will always refer to the bible. Well, of course the bible reinforces christianity, that' s it' s purpose.

No man a christian will refer to the bible for the content, he' ll say that and that because of that, same with muslims BUT BUT BUT i' m not talking about the Content here i' m talking about the way it is written=== the Bible sounds human , the Coran does not sound HUman === see the verb here SOUND, the language used. i don' t know how the bible would sound in hebrew (the original language) but if that was a good case for christians they would have brought that up to counter the style of the Coran a long time ago.

My question is, why should I read the book if I don' t believe it offers me anything? If I don' t have that initial faith in Islam, Christianity, Buddism, or any other religion what would be the point of delving into the text?

Because you have to look for the truth, man at least if there is any judgement day, tell the god i did my best i tried but i didn' t believe in all the bullshit, but to not try at all just because you think it' s bulshit , that' s my friend is a horrible mistake that you might pay the price for eternaly.

I seek a better understanding of the universe than any religion created by mankind could possibly offer me. Maybe I' ll die just as lost as ever, but I would rather search than to simply accept.

and god says in the Coran go search for the truth, search for it man but don' t undermine religions , give them a thought because hey that' s what all the fuss is about right?? you gotta see what' s going on...

see what' s going on with people ? they forget about death or they believe that death is something well that will hapen much later so who cares for now... i have friends who were still young and were dead, yesterday was among us today he' s not, look at Colin, who thought that 3 days ago this legend will die , i bet it didn' t cross anybody' s mind...

When you die , you don' t rest in peace , that' s the begining of everything, of course that' s accoring to peopel who believe in god, hell and heaven , day of judgement, but those things might happen , and if they do happen and there is in fact a possibility there , and you end up a disbeliever ... you are fucked up big time, that' s this risk you should never ever forget...

ORIGINAL: Abasoufiane

When you die , you don' t rest in peace , that' s the begining of everything, of course that' s accoring to peopel who believe in god, hell and heaven , day of judgement, but those things might happen , and if they do happen and there is in fact a possibility there , and you end up a disbeliever ... you are ***ed up big time, that' s this risk you should never ever forget...

That' s exactly the attitude Neitzsche was talking about in my earlier quote. Religion always preys on the weak who want to believe that either they or their loved ones have gone to a better place after death. So people have invented religions to give them a false hope (even if the peddlers believe it themselves). Life is for living to the full now, not for abstaining so your God is happy and you can get eternal life once you' re dead.

You' re also advocating religion as an insurance policy in case there is something there, but this doesn' t really count as faith does it?

Death = GAME OVER

religion ain' t promising a better place for the deads, not in islam, what god promises is that if you are good and abide to the law that is set by god, you will go to heaven , if not you will go to hell... WE CANNOT NOW EVER , we as muslims, wheter this perosn is going to heaven or hell, but as courtousy of the dead and specialy if he was a good man or woman, we say he or she is in paradise but that' s about it.

You' re also advocating religion as an insurance policy in case there is something there, but this doesn' t really count as faith does it?

well i fear god more than i love his laws because for me they are achore, some who have greater faith than me see it otherwise, for instance, just a small exemple here, i really want to have sex before marriage, drink wine as i want no hassle no worries, i don' t wanna prey 5 times a day, wach your parts etc that' s a chore to me, but this is the test right? it' s like you' re in school and your complaining about your homework but you know you better do it or you will suffer the consequences.. but some people in that class don' t give a damn about the teacher , they think he' s a lunatic and they want to have fun anytime, and *** that homework, they say they don' t need it, they are TOO COOL to go to school. (well yeah they are already in school but you got my idea )

and in the coran God is sarcastic about atheists and he promises them hell and he says that in the day of the judgement, they will wish they go back to their graves and stay in that darkness that' s a much better situation but THEY WON' T they will stay in hell Forever... because there will be some visits to hell you do you time and then you' re out, but some will be there eternaly.

That' s exactly the attitude Neitzsche was talking about in my earlier quote. Religion always preys on the weak who want to believe that either they or their loved ones have gone to a better place after death. So people have invented religions to give them a false hope (even if the peddlers believe it themselves). Life is for living to the full now, not for abstaining so your God is happy and you can get eternal life once you' re dead.

do you really and i mean really think that what you wrote here is really true? suuure some people have created religions to give themselve hope, i mean it might exist this case, and god they are many aren' t they, but for me Christianity , Judaism or Islam are not among them. may be he' s talkinga bout the religion of the Inka' s?

and i thought i made great point in the post before, about the fact that we can' t be all stupid, there are great mind who believe in god, and saying that you are 100% correct that god does not exist, is the same as saying we are crazy , ignorant and pathetic.. and i believe you do know this is wrong.

ORIGINAL: Abasoufiane

religion ain' t promising a better place for the deads, not in islam, what god promises is that if you are good and abide to the law that is set by god, you will go to heaven , if not you will go to hell... WE CANNOT NOW EVER , we as muslims, wheter this perosn is going to heaven or hell, but as courtousy of the dead and specialy if he was a good man or woman, we say he or she is in paradise but that' s about it.

" Do as I say or go to hell" . Religions lay down the basic morals necessary for society to work. God is a product of these societies, not the other way around. The more successful societies/cultures spread and more people change their beliefs to that of the dominant religion. If you could be a dead pagan or a healthy Christian, which would you choose?

I' ve skipped the part about being in class, you know we need to agree to disagree.

do you really and i mean really think that what you wrote here is really true? suuure some people have created religions to give themselve hope, i mean it might exist this case, and god they are many aren' t they, but for me Christianity , Judaism or Islam are not among them. may be he' s talkinga bout the religion of the Inka' s?

I don' t see why Paganism or the Inca' s are less valid forms of religion than the big 3. It' s a fact that when cultures collide the weaker culture adopts the stronger. When the Spanish invaded South America the Inca' s would have seen the Spanish technology and decided their way of life was the way forward. Again, endless persecution from the Christians inevitably sped this process up. This is particularly true in Cuba, where all the natives were wiped out, leaving no religion there except Catholicism. The African slaves adopted Christian saints and symbolism to represent their " Pagan" gods so they would not be persecuted when worshipping.

and i thought i made great point in the post before, about the fact that we can' t be all stupid, there are great mind who believe in god, and saying that you are 100% correct that god does not exist, is the same as saying we are crazy , ignorant and pathetic.. and i believe you do know this is wrong.

I' m not saying anyone is stupid because they believe in a particular faith, however I don' t think because intelligent people believe that makes it correct. I hope you' re not suggesting any atheists here are idiots or ignorant because they don' t believe.

Nick Griffin of the BNP is obviously an intelligent man yet he also believes in the global Jewish conspiracy. Does that make the Jewish conspiracy true?

My wife' s family are very religous and I get on great with my brother in law, who attends church every week. I just don' t get it. If it works for you then fine, but the point being made throughout this thread is that religous fanatics force their point of view upon the rest of us. I' ve never seen a fanatical atheist.

It' s funny you mention heaven Aba. This is the Muslim " Heaven" described in the Quran.

http://www.atheistnation.net/video/?video/00750/atheist/x-rated-islamic-heaven/

I saw a program on discovery sometime ago, about scientists explaining why religion was created, how belief in something bigger than yourself is needed to funktion.

It' s easier to believe in a god, than to believe in the scientific truths. It would be sweet with an afterlife, but once your gone, your gone, lights out. Eternal Peace if you want to call it that, but the hard point in grasping it is, that you arent in existence anymore.

Do you believe in Evolution Aba? dinosaurs and stuff? that humans originated out of micro orgasnims?

ORIGINAL: Abasoufiane

And that the Earth is only 5000 yaers old?

as for the earth if flat, dude didn' t i ask you to watch that video, precisely in that video Ahmed deedat clearly said that in the coran it is said the earth is rounded and not at any shape but like an egg, go and see it. it seems like this scholar has answered you many times but i guess you have no time to see that bullshit.

Ahum...

Mohammed

" And the Earth -- we have stretched it out like a carpet; and how smoothly have we spread it forth!" (Sura 51:48)

Mohammed

" It is He who hath made the earth level for you: traverse then its broad sides, and eat of what He hath provided. - Unto Him shall be the resurrection." (Sura 67:15).

Mohammed

" When the Heaven shall have split asunder and duteously obeyed its Lord; and when Earth shall have been stretched out as a plain, and shall have cast forth what was in her and become empty..." (Sura 84:1-4).

No, it actually say' s that the Earth is flat. Several times over.



But anyway, getting back to the actual topic of the thread....

There are more than 100 verses in the Qur' an (Koran/Coran) advocating the use of violence to spread Islam. There are exactly 123 verses in the Qur' an about killing and fighting.

Now for the people that struggle to comprehend jihad martyrdom, young Muslim boys are promised a palace of pearls in which there are 70 mansions; inside each mansion are 70 houses and in each house a bed on which are 70 sheets and on each sheet a beautiful virgin. They are assured that they will have the appetite and strength of 100 men for food and sex.

Now if this is what you' re raised to believe, ...if this is the kind of thing your environment consists of; it' s easy to understand why suicide bombers kill themselves.

This is the kind of shit young Muslim children are made to read...

Mohammed

" Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day...Nor acknowledge the religion of truth (Islam), (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay Jizya (tribute tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" . Surah 9:29

Now Christianity and Judaism are no better, but we' re talking about al-Qaeda and militant Muslims.

Like I said religions should be banned. They won' t be as they are still the most powerful organisations, however militant followers whether they actively take part in terrorist acts or just show support, should be hung like the scum they are, They have no rights for justice seeing as their innocent victims have no rights to be killed for a religious cause. Maybe then the planet might become a slightly nicer place to life.

I don' t know if it should be banned. Even I wouldn' t advocate exteme seperation of church of state. In France they banned certain religious clothing, I wouldn' t support that. I' m extemely against religion but even before that I' m for personal freedoms, even freedom to practice religion.

Just don' t have religion in schools, and don' t give churches tax breaks. If the churche wants to teach religion they should do it in their own schools/churches.

Where ever religion is taught, you will still get the lunatic or extremists angles being taught, although the only lunatic fringes seem to be from the islamic and muslim religions, maybe just get rid of them and the world will be a better place? Individual rights should be a separate issue from religious rights, as an individual isn' t taught from an early age to be a sadistic murderer like an islamic or muslim fundamentalist group does to the young, the young are indoctinated into this evil under the pretense of being religious teachings.

If there was God he wouldn' t be so retarded that he wouldn' t know the earth is round, lol.

Islam = Bullshit.

ROFL

If taken out of context, the Quran does seem to advocate violence. But within context it really only advocates defending oneself and one' s religion from violent aggressors.

2:190-193:

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

It' s very clear from those verses that attacking people without being provoked, as in terrorism, is forbidden. War against aggressors, however, is dutiful.

I could take things out of context in the bible too.

When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deutronomy 20:10-17)

wow, slavery AND wholesale slaughter. I wanna be Christian !!!



see? easy.

http://reactor-core.org/islamic-censorship.aspx

Censorship


Any time you find a weak idea that is not defendable you' ll find some form of censorship. That' s why religion is fucked with rise of the internet. Free access to limitless information is the pesticide for religion.

I' m pretty sure that some Islamic countries are actually trying to restrict internet access for this reasons. They' re doing everything possible to cling on their power but with the rise of the information age their control on what people can read gets smaller every year.

ORIGINAL: nekkid_monkey

If taken out of context, the Quran does seem to advocate violence. But within context it really only advocates defending oneself and one' s religion from violent aggressors.

I could take things out of context in the bible too.

Bingo. It' s all about context.

The same verses that are used to promote peace are used to promote violence. The problem is that none of it is regulated and terrorist cells are using religion to convince young men men to sacrifice themselves and take innocent lives.

Religion should be outlawed.