Post ww2 debate

The thing that worries or I find a little upsetting is how they seem to utilize religion as a tool to wisper sweet nothings into people' s ears to get into power and justify things. ' ' it' s the will of god' ' ....no offense but how is that any different from the medievil ' ' divine rights of kings' ' ?.

I think the real reason for the U.S. engaging in war is money.
It seems that MGS4 will touch that subject.

Forgot to mention, but…

If there' s ever a WW3 then one of those two will be responsible for it.

…WW3 has already started… Hey, Bush’s words, not mine! According to him the war on terrorism is World War III, and the first counter attack was when the civilians on flight 93 fought back on the hijackers… I’m not kidding!!! [:' (]

The thing that worries or I find a little upsetting is how they seem to utilize religion as a tool to wisper sweet nothings into people' s ears to get into power and justify things. ' ' it' s the will of god' ' ....no offense but how is that any different from the medievil ' ' divine rights of kings' ' ?.

It’s always for freedom, god, justice, peace or whatever, when it comes to war, but that is what makes it definite that the U.S isn’t better than any other. In fact, at the moment, they might (and are, if you ask me) be the most dangerous, as they tend not to realize this. When someone attacks the U.S in the name of God, it’s a terrorist attack, but when the U.S attacks in the name of God people are proud and it’s alright. And it really is scary that they have such a power. Its called propaganda and it lets them kill and be heroes because they do so!

Edit:

I think the real reason for the U.S. engaging in war is money.
It seems that MGS4 will touch that subject.

It definitely seems so, Yes. Just look at how angry people got when the gasoline price went up, after the storm came. It made them think really bad of re-electing Bush, which I find sad… They get angry such a thing, but not the people dying (both their own and foreign) due to the mess of a war they started.

The concept of the Holy War is laughable. Whether it' s Europes Holy Crusade, the Muslim worlds Jihad or Americas war on " terror" , the main goal is to either capture land and assets or make money.

If the West didn' t supply the East with weapons then there would be less problems. And if Iraqi' s wanted to overthrow Saddam, they would have, just like they are continuing to fight the coalition now.

War can never be legal, but it can at times be justified. What' s going on in Iraq isn' t justifiable and there will ultimately be consequences. The U.S isn' t the biggest power in the world, it' s simply the single largest military entity. The EU in comparison, dwarfs Americas military might, and America haven' t won a war, ...erm, ...ever?!

If Iraqi militia and farmers in Vietnam can give U.S soldiers so much trouble, what would a highly trained (say France' s) army do to them?!

That' s not to say the U.S is a threat to the West, but they could very well create future threats in North Korea and Iran, maybe even China and Russia.

I' m just hoping nobody uses military force against Iran because their president is a complete nut!

Americans are like stupid children.
It' s obvious that a war only leads to more death and destruction and that it won' t stop the terrorists. That' s why the UN wanted to talk rather than fight.
But did the U.S. listen? No. And what' s happened since they' ve begun the war?
Death and destruction. No Usama has been captured. Saddam was captured but it turns out he had no biological/chemical/nuclear weapons. Iraq is even more unstable than before the war.
I really feel sorry for the poor young american soldiers who were sent by the american government. And I really hate the americans who wanted this war.

Btw, why did they attack Iraq all of a sudden? Iraq had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks. And they hadn' t done anything recently that could' ve pissed the U.S. off. I think the whole revenge thing was just an excuse to start a war in Iraq and get the oil.

The concept of the Holy War is laughable. Whether it' s Europes Holy Crusade, the Muslim worlds Jihad or Americas war on " terror" , the main goal is to either capture land and assets or make money.

Indeed it is. Though I know the power these words like “God is on our side” can have on people, it’s like a way to say “We are not at fault” which is a great relief when you are sent out to kill.

Btw, why did they attack Iraq all of a sudden?

Oil.


Edit:
Also here, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD4OF-rR6dI&search=saddam%20usama
It’s very educational.

The oil debate is intresting,yes the code name for the war was gonna be Operation iraqish liberation,which put together makes it OIL,however look at the gulf war,.they never got any oil,.imnstead had to pay billions for their involvment.

Bush alreayd said they need to come up with something other then oil,and in 2 years bush is gone,so you cant say bush did something that helped him.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

Bush isn' t in charge. He' s just a puppet. America is run by the men who own the banks on Wall Street.

Americans are like stupid children.

Such merit coming from someone of your age and intelligence.

"If you knew how good I am you would think I'm modest."

ORIGINAL: ginjirou

Americans are like stupid children.

That could be said for a LOT of governments. I really wonder what would happen if everyone turned around and more or less strip the u.s of it' s authority....saying that though how different would the world be if the u.s was treated restrictions...I think they sort of provide some sort of balance.

I personally think at the moment though there are silent threats that are being overlooked because everyone else are to scared to act.

It is the americans fear for everything non-american that has caused them to act as they do. If you look at most the surveys made in the U.S. most of them know nothing about the world outside the U.S. And they even know very little about their own country. It is scary that theinhabitants of the worlds most powerful nation know nothing about the world since they are the ones who vote.

Story summary of the World Trade Center film, starring Nicholas Cage:

In the aftermath of the World Trade Center disaster, hope is still alive. Refusing to bow down to terrorism, rescuers and family of the victims press forward. Their mission of rescue and recovery is driven by the faith that under each piece of rubble, a co-worker, a friend a family member may be found. This is the true story of John McLoughlin and William J. Jimeno, the last two survivors extracted from Ground Zero and the rescuers who never gave up. It' s a story of the true heroes of that fateful time in the history of the United States when buildings would fall and heroes would rise, literally from the ashes to inspire the entire human race.

I… I just… Ugh, never mind…

I have a confession to make. Do know that I have nothing against the U.S country, nor do I wish to see any civilian (or soldier for that matter) suffer, and my grudge for the U.S simply lie for its government and most specifically their president. Even so I can clearly remember the day I heard about the Twin Towers attack (I was home from school sick that day) and my thoughts upon hearing what had happen… They went something like “Well, they had it coming ” and that scares me.

…I know… I’m an awful person.

War can never be legal, but it can at times be justified.

Justified? Right now I cant really think of much other than if a country were to invade another, and then the invaded country took up arms in defence. But even so I cannot help but think that the government in the invaded army should try to think of something, like giving up some land or bribing/begging their invaders to leave them alone. I know it’s bad to give in to the demand of oppressors, but the decision made by the government doesn’t just involve themselves. Many innocents will be dragged into the pride of a country that refuses to be “weak”, and I fail to see why anyone should have to die for decisions made by others. I do see faults in my logic, but I can’t help but to feel this way.

Edit:

It is the americans fear for everything non-american that has caused them to act as they do. If you look at most the surveys made in the U.S. most of them know nothing about the world outside the U.S. And they even know very little about their own country.

A friend of mine once visited there and he had a discussion with some people, about what I cannot remember, but it turned out they believed Canada lay to the south and Mexico to the North.

literally from the ashes to inspire the entire human race.

It kind of sounds like muslims are excluded from this whole " human race" thing. Like they were the enemy of the human race. I know some actually believe muslims are enemies of the human race.

Films (movies) about 9/11, will simply do what they have done for WWII in the American publics eyes; re-write history. WWII films where America are potrayed as hero' s coming to save the day are disgusting.

Bush isn' t in charge. He' s just a puppet. America is run by the men who own the banks on Wall Street.

Some say cheney and rumfsfeld is the puppetmaster of Bush.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

ORIGINAL: Majikdra6on

Films (movies) about 9/11, will simply do what they have done for WWII in the American publics eyes; re-write history. WWII films where America are potrayed as hero' s coming to save the day are disgusting.

But didn' t the U.S. kind of save the day back then?

ORIGINAL: ginjirou

ORIGINAL: Majikdra6on

Films (movies) about 9/11, will simply do what they have done for WWII in the American publics eyes; re-write history. WWII films where America are potrayed as hero' s coming to save the day are disgusting.

But didn' t the U.S. kind of save the day back then?

I hope you' re joking...

The U.S is bad yeah, but you cannot say they are the bane of the world when you have those Cult religious fanatics running around the world trying the rid it of the devil by killing people. Seriously, they believe the west has been affected by the devil, what junk. I hate those poeple. I hate all Religion Fanatics, be it Islam or Christan. Its not right, and sure America does things that many people dont like [like Iraq] buts its better to take the war to them than let them grow in power.

9/11 isnt what it is made to be anyway, much more awful massicres has happend throughout the years, just 9/11 represents that America isnt Invurnable.

Just geez wiz, the average American is stupid. and fat. Oh so very fat.

Change is inevitable. Except from a vending machine.

Viva La Revolution! erm, I mean Viva La Wii!

I dislike religion period.

Reasons being (in my opinion) that like politics and money:

(a) Turns people into the most ruthless, unrepentant and spiteful beings (despite what they proport to be teaching)

(b) Erodes any sense of decency you have left

(c) Stunts personal growth

An i' m just speaking from experience and coming from a bit of a conservative background.

I' d remember when I was younger asking over and over why do people belive in something they don' t see only to get ' ' people who don' t believe will all burn in hell' ' ....scare tactics, which is employed into a lot of things away from religion.....I think i' m finishd

By the way, what is your definition of how you “win a war?” ‘Cause I haven’t the slightest…
Is it when the other country surrenders? Or when one have taken control of their government, and resources? Or when they swear to follow the invaders country’s belief (religion, law, etc) and twice a day thank the invaders for saving them from themselves? Or when all of your enemies have been killed off? Or is it something else, you believe defines “VICTORY” in a war?

Is that at me dionysius?

When one side is forced by the other to cease fighting.

what is your definition of how you “win a war?

Nobody wins, only the bloody poltical leaders get the oil they want. And soliders die.

Change is inevitable. Except from a vending machine.

Viva La Revolution! erm, I mean Viva La Wii!

Is that at me dionysius?

Its to everyone, and its just that I' m curios of what people think decides the winning nation in events of war. Alle is fair in Love and War, right? Then if there aren' t rules in war, how do you win? People tend to call Vietnam a draw, so...

Edit:

Nobody wins, only the bloody poltical leaders get the oil they want. And soliders die.

I was hoping somebody would say that.

USA never saved the day in ww2,sure they contributed to the fall of the japanese empire,and to quicker end the german occupation,but look at what happend,germany lose their airforce against england,they then invade russia with theor whole army,which was is left fall back,then USA suddenly after pearl harbor decied to help out,and invade germany from the left while the german army is basically destroyed.

What was left of the german army was old people and young SS,sure there was some hardend verteans there also.

But people who think usa won over gemany needs to read his history book,it was clearly russia whjo beat their army.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

See. Only Americans and the ill educated think that the U.S were Europes saviours, and that' s exactly how it' s portrayed in movies which makes me sick.

What the U.S did was place their Navy in a very vulnerable position and threaten the Japanese. That caused the Japanese to attack the U.S at Pearl Harbour, an attack that it' s been proven the U.S knew about before it happened, just so they had a way into the war.

America' s aim was simple; establish itself as the first nuclear power. They did it by using German scientists to create the atom bomb which they then dropped on 2 Japanese cities, killing an unimaginable amount of civilians.

Before America got involved in the war (at the end when the Germans were utterly beaten) there were businesses on Wall Street that were supplying timber and steel to the Nazi' s. Not weapons, just the materials needed to construct them! That' s fucking unforgivable.

The 2nd World War also established Americas as the largest supplier of arms on the planet, and that hasn' t changed yet.

ORIGINAL: Majikdra6on

I hope you' re joking...

I didn' t live back then so I don' t know. All I know about WW2 comes from documentaries and the stuff I learned at school.

Wow, you guys are fucking idiots and know nothing about history, especially WWII.

"If you knew how good I am you would think I'm modest."

Oh, and here come the Americans themselves...

Wow, you guys are fucking idiots and know nothing about history, especially WWII.

Hehehehehe...

HOWDY PARTNER!

Okay,so where was the main 3 million strong germany army when usa came?
Destroyed from the east by russia?
How could russia press on from just miles from moskva to berlin,when the german army was there?


Loco go back to your books,ever heard of stalingrad?

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

Germany invades Poland - September 1, 1939

Germany' s blitzkrieg takes western Europe - March-June 1940

Battle of Britain - Fall 1940

Lend-Lease plan - November 1940 (U.S lends military equipment to cash-strapped Britain as they don' t wish to be directly involved)

Germany invades Russia - June 1941

Japan attacks Pearl Harbor - December 7, 1941

FDR asks for war on Japan - December 8, 1941 (specifically Japan, not Italy & Germany)

Battle of Coral Sea - May 1942 (U.S. planes halt Japanese advance on Australia)

British and Australian troops attack Germans in North Africa - November 1942 (Germany retreats to Tunisia, where they are surrounded by British forces)

Guadalcanal - February 1943 (Americans begin to take the Solomon Islands, this is the first real American land based offensive of the war 4 years after it started and 2 before it ended)

Germans surrender at Stalingrad - February 1943

Germans surrender at Tunisia - May 1943

Italy surrenders - September 1943

D-Day Invasion - June 6 1944 (American presence)

Battle of the Bulge - December 1944 (American Presence)

Tokyo Bombing Raids - March 1945 (American bombers destroy 250,000 buildings and kill 83,000 in massive fire-bombing)

Russians take Berlin - April 1945

V-E Day - May 7, 1945 (German government issues unconditional surrender to Allied forces)

Okinawa - April to June 1945 (Japanese inflict 80,000 losses on Americans. Over 30 American ships are sunk)

Gen. MacArthur retakes Philippines - July 1945

Hiroshima - August 6, 1945 (180,000 killed, wounded, or missing after atomic bomb is dropped)

Nagasaki - August 9, 1945 (Second bomb is dropped after Japanese delay surrender. 80,000 killed or missing)

V-J Day - September 2, 1945 (Japan surrenders with one term: the emperor must retain his throne)



In 1994, documents proving that America had not only known about the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbour but had virtually invited it were declassified.

America WANTED war with Japan and Japan alone. They tried their best to stay out of the fight on the European front and didn' t want to directly fight the German forces since Wall Street had been suppying timber and steel to the German army. Instead, America supplied Britain with arms in a deal that would allow a U.S presence in British controlled waters in the Atlantic.

I don' t know what' s taught in America, but anything seen in movies is full of shit. We owe the U.S nothing. They however owe the rest of the world more than they could possibly repay.

Majik, be honest. How long did it take for you to check the web to make that list?

Not as long as you might think. Just for the dates mostly. We' re taught WWII extensively at school here so most Europeans have a good grasp of the bigger events.

Quez is still waiting for Russia to applogise for invading Poland, but then, in 1665 Sweden invaded Poland...

Yeah, I to tend to have problem with remembering the dates (not only for historical events). By the way, did you know that in World War One, Japan supported England, together with America and others... Funny (tragic) how things turn out, huh!

Quez is still waiting for Russia to applogise for invading Poland, but then, in 1665 Sweden invaded Poland

About that, on the behalf of all of Sweden, I apologize. I' m really sorry, we will not do it again.

And Finland majik,dont forget that.

oh crap,we took finland and had it for over 700 years...well nvm...

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

Hell we took a big part of sweden and norway, and we are the only country to succesfully invade Engand!

I learned all my WW2 histroy from war games such as Medal of Honor, Call of Duty and Brothers In Arms.

Your all wrong, apparently one man won the entire war. 3 times.

Change is inevitable. Except from a vending machine.

Viva La Revolution! erm, I mean Viva La Wii!

Chemical,you was nothing in the 1600-1800 and Sweden is the first of three countries to ever invaded russia itself.
Btw at that time we owned Sweden-finland parts of germany,and the baltikum and parts of norway.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

You bash other countries for wars and brag about yours.

"If you knew how good I am you would think I'm modest."