Call911, you flame everyone for only listening to one media source, but then you go on tooting the crap that the Swift Boat Vets are spewing.

Those guys are funded by a rich Republican supporter. A major contributor to Bush' s 2000 and 2004 campaigns. You can' t tell me that you believe the crap from these guys. Some of those guys backed Kerry monthes ago and then mysteriously changed their minds. The main guy, Thurlow, got a Silver Star in the same battle that Kerry got his and his report said that " there were bullets flying over his head" . Those guys are full of it and are being run up there to discredit Kerry.

On the econonic issue, a guy that only replaces 67% of lost jobs at lower then what they were making before is not doing a good job. I don' t care how you try to phrase it or what excuses you use.

Could Kerry have run a better war? Who knows? He couldn' t have done much worse.
- There was no exit strategy.
- Hardly any other foreign troop support (20 Austalians and a couple hundred guys from the UK)
- Halliburton stealing tons of money with their " reconstruction" .
- The Abu Ghraib mess
- The civil wars in Najaf and all over the country
- The lack of security (foreign contracters getting beheaded and abducted)
- And the lack of WMDs (or any thing close to them).

Any president with an ounce of diplomacy and forethought could have done a better job. Do people think that this guy did a good job? Give me a break.

You guys have got to check out this site:

http://billionairesforbush.com/index.php

Let' s see what the Republican National Convention (RNC) will offer...there' s already massive protests in the hosting area, New York...I want to hear what Arnold Schwarzennegger has to say about Bush...

About the Swift Boat Vets (SBV' s), Bush has spoken to call off those commercials...I' m unclear of the reasons why...It could be that the commercials are false, but why would those independents want to spend millions airing false events? Looks like Kerry will have to face this problem or he' ll be in for bigger questionings.

beef - yet again, what the hell are you talking about?

the Swift Boat Vets so called " rich Republican supporter" is a texas home builder. and you know how much he gave them? 100,000 dollars. thats it. 100 grand. any other money they needed they raised themselves.

now had the democrats not pushed their little campaign reform bill through, they wouldnt have to worry about these third party campaign adds. but since they yelled and hollered about soft money they go t what they wanted. and so since these parties that would normally give money to a campaign can no longer do that you now get these adds. and the motivation for the SBV was not political, it is now because thats what the media has made it, but their original impetous was the fact that they think that Kerry is untrust worthy and they dont want to the the country they fought for fall into his hands.

now, you wanna talk about rich third party benefactors, what about the guy that said he would fund however many millions it took to get Bush out of office.
and what about moveon.org? founded by joan blades and wes boyd, 2 silicon valley entrepreneurs. moveon.org has been around longer than the SBV and theres not just one add smearing bush but the entire site is filled with anti-bush adds and propaganda.

and who backed Kerry? 2. 2 guys out of the 40 or so that were there. he started talking about them backing him and supporting him with out their consent. they had no idea he was gonna do it and they werent even contacted about it. they never mysteriously changed their minds.

get this though, it is illegal for a candidate to contact a 527 campaign organization. illegal. as in a crime. bush was apporached at his ranch with a note from a democratic leader asking him to contact the SBV and ask them to stop. bush declined because it was illegal but he went on the record publically renouncing the 527 ads and groups.

kerry on the other hand, contacted the group and members of it. thats illegal. since when is a presidential candidate allowed to break the law?

you read that report you posted didnt you? i would assume that if your going to use some information you would read it first right? only 1.3 million jobs were displaced after bush took office. now if we apply your idea that some how the president is at fault for any one being out of a job, that would mean that only those 1.3 million displaced jobs were bush' s fault, and in his 4 years in office he replaced 67% of 11.4 million jobs. how is that not good?

you think Kerry could have brought an economy around like that? his plan to make more jobs in the U.S. would do exactly that, make more jobs. but the pay would go down drastically and the standard of living would go down proportionatly. more jobs means workers are less in demand and anyone you hire you can hire for less than what the job would normally pay.

and kerry' s idea of taxing the rich more, he doesnt care. it dosn' t mean squat to him, and he threw it out there to get votes. know why? kerry' s income is almost nothing, he lives off his wifes money, and you get taxed on money you make not money you have.

kerry would have gone to war too. his people admit that. and he would have done it the same way too, except for he probably would have messed it up a lot more.
and since when do we need foriegn military support? and now the situation is getting better. wars are long and nasty, there is bloodshed, and any sort of resolution that comes about takes time. get used to it.

we even tried diplomacy with Iraq before the war and it didnt work.

and im hardly flamming anybody, this thread would have been closed if there was so much flamming going on. the SBV are not the only people i get my information from. when i say you should get your info from more than one source i mean you should make an effort to get either unbiased news or get your news from both sides and form your own opinion.

alley - bush denounced the ads because he thought they were shady and unfair to either candidate. the fact of the matter is that even the president cant make them stop. they are protected under the first amendment, however despite this kerry is trying to silence the SBV by filing a complaint with the fcc.

Swift Boat Vets - supported by the same people (wealthy Texas home builder and veterans) that dragged McCain through the mud in the 2000 primaries. Same tactics, same MO. They take a character strength of an opponent and twist the truth to make it a weakness and/ or non-factor. McCain was a POW for over 5 years and they labelled him as someone who " doesn' t support the veterans" . They do the same to Kerry by saying that he didn' t earn one of his 5 medals in Vietnam. Also, they say that he called Vietnam vets war criminals when he was just the spokesman for a group of 150 decorated Vietnam vets. They misquote people and take their words out of context to paint a false picture of them.

They aren' t connected to Bush? (Presidents can' t contact 527' s). Two people (a veteran and Legal Counsel) from the Bush campaign resigned because of their ties to the Swift Boat Vets.

Personally, I think that 527' s should exist. It gives regular people freedom of speech and has the potential to be a good part of the process. I think that they should be somewhat regulated because lies and slander can ruin someone' s election chances. Moveon.org is guilty of this too. They should be held to some litmus test of truth before they perpetuate lies about candidates.

The economy - thanks for the economic lesson, I took the class too.

you read that report you posted didnt you? i would assume that if your going to use some information you would read it first right? only 1.3 million jobs were displaced after bush took office.

This is the first paragraph of the report.
During the January 2001 through December 2003 period, 5.3 million
workers were displaced from jobs they had held for at least 3 years, the
Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today.
The number of displaced workers increased from 4.0 million in the previous
survey that covered the period from January 1999 through December 2001.

1.3 million more jobs were displaced while he was in office compared to the prior 3 year period. Not only 1.3 million. Take that with the new economic reports that just came out:

- The Commerce Department said Americans' personal incomes rose a scant 0.1 percent in July -- the slowest growth since November 2002
- Consumer Confidence is down to 98.2 from 105.7 in July
- The Census Bureau states that 1.4 million more people are living below the poverty line and 1.3 million more people are living without health care.

Good job, Mr. President.

Could Gore or Kerry have done better? I am not sure, but they aren' t the ones that cut tax revenue by trillions and called it an economic stimulus package.

Also, the fact that 20% of those people are still unemployed is terrible. It is ridiculous to say that that is an OK job. The country has a historic unemployment rate around 5-6%, so being at 20% for a segment of the population is terrible.

The war - I already got into that, in a previous post - see that. All that I will say is that our intelligence was wrong. Have we attempted to revamp the bad intelligence function that missed the warning signs of 9-11, misread the WMD potential of Iraq, outed a CIA double agent, and revealed the identity of an Al Qaeda double agent? No. No one has been fired (Tenet resigned), there has been no restructuring, and his cooperation with the 9/11 Commission is a politicized response to the Kerry-Edwards promise. Bush tried to block the 9/11 Commission. Maybe the truth hit to close to home.

This election year sucks...again I say, they both a couple of dim-wits.

Mass X, amen to that.

It feels like we are arguing about the lesser of two evils.

What the hell is a 527? Explain now or I will set my hair on fire.

A 527 is a tax-exempt group formed to engage in political activities. 527 is the name given to it by the IRS for tax purposes.

I am not sure about the level of input or contact that officials can have, but Call911 is probably right because you don' t hear of elected or running politicians outwardly coordinating with 527' s.

Got a proposition for anyone still reading this (I feel like me and Call911 are just arguing by ourselves).

Without trying to be negative about the other candidate, put down who you are voting for and the reasons why.

For me:

Kerry (obviously)

- Stem cell research; I feel that this may be the wave of the future in terms of medicine and deserves a lot more support than it currently receives.

- Foreign policy; America is the leading country in the free world (sorry to anyone reading this from another place). Though we need to lead others, we can' t make decisions in spite of them. Also, terrorism is a global threat. We need to have friends and allies everywhere to fight it, we can' t do it alone.

- Fiscal policy; Job creation has been better in the past year, but I feel that it could be better. Kerry specifically is proposing to retain most of the tax cuts (except for the richest Americans), he is also proposing a tax cut for businesses to provide health care. He also wants to drop the Foreign Investment credit which promotes outsourcing. Finally, he is proposing a domestic job creation tax credit. This is most important to me because outsourcing to foreign countries is stripping America of an identity. Almost any job can be outsourced, except for service positions. I am a financial analyst. My work could be e-mailed to another country and someone can e-mail it back for $10,000 a year. Think about what you do and if you really have to be there to do it.

- Environmental policy; This is not an attack, but a fact. Republicans are worse on the environment than Democrats. Bush has rolled back a lot of emission regulations because it is cheaper to produce without having to worry about pollution. Also, Kerry is really behind alternative fuels. If we ease our reliance on foreign oil we will be in a better place.

- Health care; Over the last year, my health care premium has gone up by 50%. Kerry plans to bring some of those costs down. Also, I just got dental work done and I have to pay an arm and a leg over the premium to get it done. That ain' t right!!

I have no idea of who I' m voting for right now. I' m gradually leaning away from Kerry as it seems every day something new comes up. My big problem with Kerry is his mysterious plan that he will only reveal after he' s elected to get the troops out of Iraq. Like Mass X said both of the canidates suck a lot of ass. It' s probably going to be the same in the 2008 elections too. My only wish is that a legitimate Independent would emerge to contend with Republicans and Democrats. I' m more Independent than anything else and if Nader wasn' t so crazy I' d be voting for him.

The choice here is do we want a guy weve come to know for the past 4 years make a mess of the country or do we want a stranger to have his way with it?

Ill go with the stranger just for the hell of having som1 new, no politics behind it at all really. Its quite sad. Hopefully the next elecetion will bring forth better choices.

R.I.P. 2004-2008 [:' (] These next few years are gonna see alot of separation and friction between all of the nation.

Btw Im very new to politics and this is my first year voting so Im not all into the politcal system quite yet.

Bush because of his faith, strong decision making in critical times, offensive efforts against terrorism, domestic plans for the future, support of weapons and armor for troops, courage to fight Iraq inspite of UN opposition, clear standing on issues, and things he said at the RNC.

Why doesn' t Bush invade North Korea. They are a serious threat. Since obviously it is our job to police the world from who we deem dangerous, it is Bush' s DUTY to go over there.

Oh wait, I know why we don' t go over there. Because N Korea has a MUCH stronger military than Iraq. Iraq was easier to win. Even though North Korea is a way bigger threat to the world than Iraq, we chose the easier target.

But since we went to " liberate" the Iraqi people, we must now liberate every single other country in the world. It is our duty. China is actually pretty ruthless. We should invade and liberate them. Bush rules!

hehe, Joe, I knew you would eventually post what you did a long time ago, I expected it. I give on the NK issue. But North Korea + China + Iraq is worse than North Korea + China.

and you didn' t

Without trying to be negative about the other candidate, put down who you are voting for and the reasons why.

I' ve decided that no matter who you (or anyone on this thread) votes for, I will vote for the opposite! Yes, that means I will vote many, many times illegally! :0

No, seriously Joe .

Hey, Call911, you' ve been attacked again. I can' t see how both sides of the debate based upon facts and still be able to make Bush/Kerry look good AND bad. For goodness sake, they' re facts! The latest facts though, show more ownership in the US than ever, and that 144,000 jobs were created in some state, plus, US casualties and kidnap on the whole has declined in ratios.

Quick correction Alley. 144,000 jobs were created in the entire country in August, not just one state. I am not sure the accuracy of this, but they say that you need to create at least 150,000 jobs monthly to keep up with the growth in the labor force.

Also, I am not sure how strong a state home ownership is. Mortgage rates are the lowest they have historically been. Even in a down economy people will buy homes when you can get a 5.5% mortgage.

I do agree that the war has been going better though. I haven' t heard too much about casualties and the peace in Najaf is a good sign.

Alley, remember what ghost Obi-Wan Kenobi told Luke in Return of da Jedi. It all dependz on your point of view, yo. Itz dat simple. For example, the Bush administration isn' t going to give people the same facts that Kerry people will give out. Instead, they' ll give other facts that make Bush look good. And vice-versa. It doesn' t matter who you like, it is easy to find facts to support your side and make the other side look bad. Neither side is perfect. That' s why either way, America loses. Anyone who seriously thinks that either party will do a world of good if in office is probably under the influence of drugs.

My mistake Beef Shala.

I am not sure the accuracy of this, but they say that you need to create at least 150,000 jobs monthly to keep up with the growth in the labor force.

That is true, I heard it on the news too!

About the war being better...there were 7 more US casualties due to terrorist car bomb. The new Iraqi government was blaimed for not having control of Najaf...so, should we stay longer until the whole country is under control?

Today, Kerry attacked Bush on the war in Iraq. Bush attacked right back, saying Kerry voted for the war once, then twice recently, and today he says the US went to war in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Bush said something like this: " My opponent woke up this morning in yet again a different position." Funny huh?

Joe, to be truthful, I' ve NEVER watched any Star Wars movie. Seriously. I only saw commercials and short footages. So I don' t remember what Obi-Wan Kenobi told Luke in Return of da Jedi. True, neither side is perfect, but false, I am not under the influence of drugs . And Joe,

Without trying to be negative about the other candidate, put down who you are voting for and the reasons why.