While I' m NO sports fan, I have some concerns regarding their performance since their 3rd party transition.

Even though they supposedly moved onto " greener pastures" by developing on all three consoles, the grass seems to only have gotten brown-er instead of greener with some of their previously highly popular titles.

On the Dreamcast the Sega Sports games (Football and Basketball) had quite a captive audience and were one of Sega' s more profitable franchises with NFL 2K at one point almost hanging with Madden in terms of sales but now since the 3rd party transition the gap has widened enormously. - heck they' re not even selling as well as they did on the Dreamcast.

I' m starting to wonder, did some folks feel slighted/burned by Sega killing the Dreamcast that they refuse to buy Sega made games?

Just like during the Dreamcast days I kept wondering " WHERE THE F**K WERE THE REMAINING 7 MILLION SATURN OWNERS IN JAPAN DURING THE DREAMCAST ERA WHEN SEGA REALLY NEEDED THEM?"

The Saturn was the only successful console Sega had in Japan and it had tons of high quality offerings to boot, so why didn' t those fans make the Dreamcast transition?

Bah, my head hurts, LOL..

I' m not quite understanding what you mean. The ESPN/ Sega sports titles have just gotten better and have even surpassed the EA sports titles. ESPN Football completely over shadowed Madden this year not only in my opinion but also in the opinion of numerous sites on the net. I may be a bit biased towards Sega, but I still think even without bias that their sports titles have become the best out there. The only reason EA gets better sales is because they are the mainstream. ESPN sports is getting an edge though. I have several friends that were die hard Madden fans that are know obsessed with ESPN Football. I have a feeling we' ll see a big change in sports titles' sales this next year.

Rampage: I' m looking at review scores, and I don' t see that " overshadowing" you' re talking about. Madden 2004 had one option that set it apart from the crowd: the PlayMaker option. You have full control of just about everything on the field, and you actually FEEL like you' re running the team. Without this function, I don' t even want to play a football game, I love it so much. On top of which, it' s STILL way more realistic than ESPN. I don' t like the idea of heaving the ball downfield and having it complete 75% of the time just because my receiver is fast. That happens a LOT in ESPN...good luck getting that to happen in Madden.

IMO, Madden 2004 was the best installment yet.

I agree with Fathoms on the " not overshadowing" part, but I agree, where the hell were those 7million-or so Jap. Sega fans? I, for one, loved the DC more than the PSone and it' s only comp. was N64 (I had all 3). I mean, the DC had games like Powerstone, Rainbow Six, Unreal Tournament, Quake III Arena, PowerStone 2, Sonic Adventures 1 and 2, and all the Sega sports games. The N64 had Goldeneye, Mario Cart, Mario 64, Conkers Bad Fur Day, and Super Smash Bros. On the other hand, all I really recall from the PSone was FF 7,8, and 9, Crash Bash, and Crash Team Racing. So, all in all, I want to know how the Sega fans let the DC go down like that.

I know you have always been a Madden fan and everytime I try to say ESPN is better you like to put it down, like saying Rallisport or PG is better than Gran Tourismo, but your personal opinion doesn' t disprove all the reviews showing ESPN was the better game. I also ressent the remark of ESPN having to many long throws caught. I' ve gone through two seasons and it' s pretty damn hard to pull off a large amount of passes. Then again I really don' t care. I prefer ESPN over Madden as do the majority of reviewers out there.

I do agree though that Japan needed to step up a bit. I mean where the hell are they getting the money to buy all those PS2s. That on top of the sheer number they have sold is like several times their poulation(over exageration I know). Japan is soppused to have some hardcore sega fans. Instead of having three PS2s in every household buy a sega product.

Ahhh...I' m back...*brushes off sleeves*

Long time, no see to all here that do not know me, lol.

Anyways...this argument has been taking place for a year now. I rate ESPN over Madden just for the fact of online play. Sure Madden has it, but it' s nowhere near the level of ESPN on Live.

Welcome back Yosh

Yeah, the online in ESPN is pretty sweet. Do you still have the game? I wouldn' t mind playing some for old time sake. First game I played on LIVE.

Actually my comments had Nothing to do with the quality of Madden vs. Sega' s sports games, it was regarding the Sales.

Noone can deny that since going third-party, EA' s sports games have totally smoked the Sega sports games in Sales.

Back during the Dreamcast days, Sega Sports could hang in sales. The Dreamcast audience swallowed up Sega Sports titles. Sega Sports isn' t getting the same reaction on the so called " greener pastures" consoles.

Rampage: The difference between the two of us is that I like to use facts. You just said:

" I prefer ESPN over Madden as do the majority of reviewers out there."

According to GameRankings, ESPN has an overall average rating of 89.3%, while Madden has 90.8%.

Seems like your statement might not be 100% true. Actually, seems like it' s not even 1% true.

My guess is that you haven' t played much of Madden. My guess is that you don' t know what I' m talking about when I mention the Playmaker options. My guess is that you jumped to conclusions about me " bashing" ESPN. I never did any such thing. I know it' s a good game, as does most people. You' re the only one that said that " most reviewers prefer ESPN," which, obviously, is untrue.

immortal: As far as the N64 goes, you named just about every worthwhile title for that system. That many in five years is a travesty, IMO, especially after the glory that was the SNES (best system ever, IMO). I think maybe you missed the RE, MGS, and GT series, and single games like Castlevania: SotN, Twisted Metal 2, Alundra, etc. on PSone, and besides the FF series, tons of RPGs that simply didn' t exist on the N64 (or DC, for that matter).

Even with the good launch of the DC and some early great games, Sega fans were too used to Sega hardware failures, and the Japanese weren' t all that ready to fall for another flop. Their reputation in hardware heading into the DC was, to put it mildly, tarnished.

Well, I' m sorry, the more respectable sites prefered ESPN. I don' t go to game rankings, and I have played Madden. I don' t like Madden' s style. ESPN is more fun to play, looks better, and has a much presentation and announcers. Whatever, keep ddefending the " amazing" Madden.

The more respectable sites? You mean like IGN, which gave ESPN a 9.3 and Madden a 9.4? Look, the bottom line is that your statement wasn' t accurate. The " majority" of reviewers do not prefer ESPN; in fact, they' re pretty well split, with Madden having the overall edge.

ESPN plays and looks great, but it' s just plain bland without the level of control I have in Madden. Furthermore, the Franchise mode (build stadiums, set ticket and concession stand prices, full drafts, preseason training drills, etc.) greatly exceeds anything in ESPN in terms of depth.

And if you think I' m the only one that says this...think again.

I wasn' t trying to turn this into a " Which is the better football game" argument
All I was trying to say was that 3rd party development hasn' t been kind to the likes of Sega Sports..


I' m not the least bit qualified to compare the sports franchises since I dislike sports in general :p
but as far as the issue of what sites thought of both football games, this is just something I noticed from the Very few sites I' ve seen review both sports franchises in the past.

BEFORE Madden 2004 I used to notice that a handful of sites were usually split about which they preferred. They loved the arcade-style gameplay of the NFL 2k/ESPN series and also loved the sim-style play of Madden. BUT ever since Madden 2004 came out, it' s really the only football game I hear mentioned anymore. It' s almost as if Madden 2004 has transcended into some kind of super legendary status - represented by the glowing reviews and the phenomenal sales. I' m not sure but is it the highest selling Madden game so far?

I want Sega to whip EA' s a$$ all over the place, no doubt about that, but I can' t ignore what' s going on in the industry. A die-hard Sega fanboy, Yes I am. A blind one, Nope - and the bottom line is that Madden 2004 stomped its foot so deep into the a$$e$ of all of the other football games on the market in terms of sales that it may take a while longer before some other football franchise is able to successfully challenge it.

My question is, since Sega took over the ESPN license for the sports games, have the sales improved? Remained the same? Decreased?

Sales numbers when compared to what, though? Better than the NFL 2k series on DC, you mean? I doubt it. The Madden name has been around for nearly 14 years now, remember that. EA is huge. Remember that as well. The advertising budget for Madden is probably quadruple that of ESPN' s. That' s just the way businesss goes.

Just as a side note, ESPN had put their name on some really mediocre sports titles in the past several years (with Konami by their side). Now that Sega has the reigns, things have DRASTICALLY improved. Konami is for the best music and sound in the industry, and games like Metal Gear and Castlevania, etc...not for sports. Leave that to the big boys. :)

OK, this is not a Madden vs. Sega Sports thread. This is about how Sega, as a whole- not just sports, hasn' t seen the increase in sales that the company promised when they went third party.

Yeah sales of the Sega Sports (as in the American sports titles (Smilebit' s Let' s Make A.... series is as popular as ever)) titles have nosedived since the DC days. I guess they only sold well on the DC due to no competition other than Acclaim and Konami' s woeful efforts. The Sega Sports division has been the one to drag Sega' s overall performance down since they turned third party. A shame but selling off Visual Concepts is likely unless things improve.

Fathoms

Konami make the best football (as in soccer) game around. With Winning Eleven/Pro Evolution Soccer around you really do wonder as to why anyone else bothers to make football games.

I much prefer Sega sports titles over EA' s line. I don' t have any proof suggesting it' s better or anything, I just prefer what I prefer.


Sega sega sega....you know what' s sad? Since they' ve gone 3rd party, they' ve made some of their best games in years, to wit -

JSRF
Gun Valkyrie
Sega GT (it' s no Gran Turismo, but still very much playable)
Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution
Panzer Dragoon Orta
Phantasy Star Online Episode 2


And the list could go on - but these original, often ground breaking games don' t sell and lose Sega a lot of money.

Ultimately, the reason why Sega Sports games don' t sell as well is because they don' t reside on just one console anymore. They now have competition which frankly has a market lead on them. EA aren' t one of the biggest publishers in the world for nothing, you know.

I love Sega to pieces, but you know what? They just keep digging their own grave. It' s like watching your best friend go insane.

Preacher: Actually, that list can' t " go on" , IMO. You pretty much got them all right there, although I' d question Gun Valkyrie and PSO...both extremely mediocre, IMO. Anyway, that' s ALL of this generation. I would' ve expected more from Sega. Being forced to go third-party, I would' ve thought that they might start cranking out titles, but they held back for some reason. I know there were financial issues to deal with, but still...

I mean, besides PDO and VF, they really don' t anything that could be considered " stellar" this generation. The best days of Sega were in the arcades and with the Genesis.

I personally thought PDO was horendous crap. All the other titles Preacher mentioned were good though. I think PDO is the perfect example of graphics being the only reason to play the game. It was eye candy but everything else seemed... nonexistant.

I' ve never liked Panzer Dragoon, and I' m not a fan of PDO. I' m just going by review scores and other people' s views on the game.

Gun Valkyrie was hideously underrated because the learning curve was so horrendously steep. Once you see the rolling demo, it' s a revelation: you think


" oh my god, I didn' t know you could stay in the air almost all the time" .


Every review I' ve seen for Gun Valkyrie makes little mention of this fantastic gameplay mechanic, it sounds as though they were all running around on foot whilst occassionally boost jumping to reach other ledges.


PSO is the game that shouldn' t be. It shouldn' t be fun, something so monotonous shouldn' t be so captiviating...but it is. I don' t think I' ll ever be able to tell you why I like it so much to be honest, but I hope this sketch from penny arcade helps

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-04-16



As for PDO, it' s certainly an acquired taste, just like Nights was. The incentive to revisit levels to achieve " S" Ranks is one that kept me ploughing through the game, finishing it on every difficulty level. I applaud Sega for maintaining an old school principal in gaming, one many other developers have abandoned in favour of " realism" .


And amongst the many other good Sega games, do remember that there was Super Monkey Ball 1 and 2, F-ZERO GX, Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg, outrun 2, virtua cop 3 and Sonic Heroes that i didn' t get to add to the list. Sure, a couple of those are arcade games, but if/when they make an appearance on console I' m sure they' ll be just as good as their arcade counterparts.