I like the way you don' t exclude yourself from comparison and contrast.

I have a lot of comments to post, but since the thread " will basically go on forever and accomplish absolutely nothing at all" , it' s logical to end the thread and let life continue to flow. As I believe one day earth will host an event out of ordinary human events, I will let the possibility of that day answer all our questions. Life began, life must end....until then, eternity ---->forever, check out the root of that word: " until a time unknown" , not necessarily eternity.

I can' t believe Bush' s daughter (whatser name?) is attending a gay wedding next month. What reputation is she putting on for Bush? She' s gonna further ruin his campaign! I guess Bush can' t have much control on his over-18-year-old daughter (she IS at least 18 right?).

Ummmm... who cares?

Also she (they) are over 21.

Marriage is supposed to be a decision made by the two partners involved, not by the government.

If two, from the same sex, wish to commit themselves to each other for a lifetime, then who am I to say that they don' t truly love each other and shouldn' t be together.

Love is for everyone...not just an experience for one man and one woman.

Would you rather see people becoming non-social, or even worse - hating each other? That would be just plain stupid to choose non-socialization and/or hatred over love. Life' s too short for that kind of nonsense...

Both the Church and the Government have other issues which they need to address...

The Church has issues like spreading claims that they are the one true religion and -oh yeah-saving souls, feeding and clothing the poor, and stuff like that.

Governmental issues pertain to starting wars in foreign lands based on lies and personal interest (federal gov. specifically), jobs and the economy, education, ending homelessness and poverty, and feeding the poor.

I' ll close by saying that the Government and Church needs to butt-out of our personal lives! This is America...the land of the equal and free, not of the oppressed!

But according to some posters here, people actually CHOOSE to live that life.
Do people ***really*** think that ANYONE would " choose" to be gay knowing how most people feel about it and risk being ridiculed, fired from work, joked about, and even killed? Think about it! I don' t think so. People are what they are sexually. And I think people fear what is not the norm. Just look how freaked out people are over gay marriage. Seriously, they are VERY afraid, as if their whole life will change or something.

Technically, marriage is a church thing, but " civil unions" or whatnot can be and should be legally the same thing in every respect.

So how do you new people in the forum (at least new in this thread) think of gay marriages? Vanswa Garbutt, Starman Anthony, what_about_paul, Startrek guy, OBXOR, and some others I don' t remember. You guys should read back the previous pages before putting anything down.

Count of states accepting/banning gay marriages: that' s 2-1
Ban: Luisiana, Missouri
Accept: Massachusetts

Damned Democrats (most of them) and Republicans (a few of them) in the senate. An overwhelming number of Dems voted " Nay" , while an overwhelming number of Reps voted " Yay" . I guess this would lead back to their leaders: Bush and Reps against ssm, and Kerry (opposes but didn' t vote " Yay" , what a flip-flopper) and Dems are against ssm. Shows the difference between moral conservatives and immoral liberals.

Kerry doesn' t vote " yay" yet doesn' t oppose it? I wouldn' t call that flip-flopping at all. He doesn' t oppose it but he doesn' t ENDORSE it either. That' s kind of like me. I really don' t care of the states officially approved it, but I don' t think they should go out of their way to make it illegal either. Remember Alley_Hater, everything isn' t always black and white (or as the Republicans like to say " You' re either for us or against us" ).

And really, like I' ve said before, who is to define morals? You? Me? Solid Snake? It depends on the society, and societies change constantly. I suppose you could use God as your reference, but then again not everybody believes in the same religion as you do or maybe not even at all. That only makes them immoral in your eyes. In their eyes I' m sure some of the things you do are immoral. You can' t always be right, and you are most certainly not when it comes to morals (neither am I, by the way). You also wrongly accuse all Liberals of being immoral and all Conservatives of being moral. That' s hilarious!

What you are seeing with these votes is the cold hard truth that there really isn' t that much of a separation from church and state. Religion plays a big part in government these days which to me is a bad thing. Gays should be able to marry just like the rest of us but I think way too much time is spent on this issue over others that are more important such as equal wages and stem cell research.

Well said Yoshimitsu!

You are, of course, going to hell!

Kerry doesn' t vote " yay" yet doesn' t oppose it? I wouldn' t call that flip-flopping at all.

I meant opposing gay marriage but votes " Nay" on amendment.

This world is so blinded that they cannot focus on domestic issues like gay marriage. I have posted this many times, the basis for the world is good and evil, right and wrong. Starting from WWI, the world today was shaped by the most important turn in the century, WWII. If D-Day failed, the whole world would' ve been under dictatorship and today would not be as technologically advanced. To me, the more advance the world is, the more blindly the human judgment on moral issues is. An example on that, maybe you guys think such reality tv shows such as " wife swap" is ordinary, but I accuse it of adultery. Also, there are more violence, inappropriate language, and sex as the world moves forward. Advancement = liberalization, and liberalization means corrupting basic values. I forgot whether this is inductive or deductive reasoning, but, in early human civilizations, these problems did not arise to such a conflict that it has today. Plus, the fact that there is a male and a female gender, concludes me to believe that the union of a man and a woman was meant to be. What about the reproductive ability that both genders must unite to be successful? That is an obvious fact of the tendency for man to marry woman. I also blame on the wide freedom Americans have. The more free they are, the more chaotic they are. In Asian countries, for example, study shows they are more disciplined than Americans. In school, they do their work, they don' t throw paper, they throw their lunch trash in the trash, basura en la basura, they don' t cuss at the teacher, ... In my school, for example, American kids are poorly behaved, they do things Asian kids don' t. They fight, they cuss, they vandalize school properties. The most advanced country in the world is also the most corruptive in morality. Excerps from those who share my view:

Rampage99

I' m against gay marriage. That has a lot to do with my religious beliefs and the fact the way of the world is man and woman unite to make children-it' s how the world works. If they do allow gays to unite don' t call it marriage. Marriage is man and woman, make up a new name for it. Gay animals have been found to be mentally retarded which is the reason for their behavior.

Spacepiston

Look, Marriage is for a man and woman. Thats it. If a couple of gays want to play " man-and-wife" thats just too bad! Mainly because they are not man and wife! If your gay and you want to play man-and-wife, then grow up.

Russian Mobster

In the begining GOD created Adam and Eve not adam and steve. So im against fags and all their ways.

Myself

I believe humans are naturally good. The fact that there is " good" and " evil" in the world means I have to take side. Homosexuals have something wrong with their genes and/or hormones. Abnormalities should' nt be an excuse to change society. Would you follow the behavior of someone with ADHD? People who DON" T have problems with their genes/hormones are just crazy followers of some dumb trend.

If D-Day failed, the whole world would' ve been communist

Communist? Wouldn' t it be a dictatorship. Certainly you are talking about Adolf Hitler, rather than Josef Stalin. Right?

My mistake Mikey...I keep thinking WWII was the period when the Iron Curtain was built. Yes, I mean dictatorship. I keep thinking of when the Soviet Union took control of Germany and turned it to communism. I will edit that.

Addressing a few of your points above in no particular order:

What about the reproductive ability that both genders must unite to be successful? That is an obvious fact of the tendency for man to marry woman.

Ya don' t need to be married to reproduce there, smacky! Marriage is man' s (as in the human race) idea. Animals don' t marry. Religion is a loophole and I won' t accept that as an argument. If you want to think that I' ll burn in hell, that' s fine. But that argument carries ZERO weight with me. Anyway back to my point... just because it takes a man and a woman to pop out a kid does not mean they were meant to marry. And even then the purpose of mariage is not always to intrduce another asswipe into the human race. Lots of people marry and don' t have kids. I never ever plan on having kids (yes, I' m straight). The world is way too overpopulated as it is. Once again, marriage is just an idea, not something built in to human nature.

In my school, for example, American kids are poorly behaved, they do things Asian kids don' t. They fight, they cuss, they vandalize school properties.

Your school sucks an incredible amount of ass! And you say that you' re in America' s finest city? I don' t think it has anything to do with " too much freedom" . I think it has EVERYTHING to do with the way parents raise (or don' t raise) their dipsh!t kids. Many parents use the TV as a babysitter and/or don' t get involved enough in their child' s life. They just dictate rules and expect them to be followed. You have to do more than that when you raise your kids. More rules and less freedom wouldn' t make our society better, it would just make us all extremely resentful.

The most advanced country in the world is also the most corruptive in morality.

Holy crap! Taiwan in the most advanced country in the world? Or maybe Cambodia? I could go on and on with that one.

Excerps from those who share my view:

Ummm... who cares? Why not let them speak for themselves? What does YOU bringing THEIR posts back up supposed to convince us all of? Is someone who says things like " So im against fags and all their ways" supposed to make me somehow actually respect them or you?

To me, the more advance the world is, the more blindly the human judgment on moral issues is.

Well once we get to the point where we invent the time machine, maybe you can realize your dream and go back and live in the 1400' s. Things change, and it seems like you are afraid of change. I find your reactions hilarious!

If D-Day failed, the whole world would' ve been under dictatorship and today would not be as technologically advanced.

And you can prove this? Have you ever studied cause and effect? You say this as if you' ve actually seen the alternative present. You are talking out of your ass on this one, just guessing on what would have happened had D-Day (specifically) failed. Yes, the world would have been different, but I don' t think the entire place would be under one rule.

This world is so blinded that they cannot focus on domestic issues like gay marriage.

Why would the world concentrate on US domestic issues like gay marriage? Perhaps you meant to say that " this country" is so blinded instead of " the world" ?

My mistake Mikey...I keep thinking WWII was the period when the Iron Curtain was built. Yes, I mean dictatorship. I keep thinking of when the Soviet Union took control of Germany and turned it to communism. I will edit that.

Haha. Don' t worry about it. WWII is confusing. Nice writing though.

What' s wrong with cursing? I tend to like cursing...some of my favorite words are curse words. Fuck and Shit top the list for me!

Curse words are just that: Words. They weren' t invented by Satan or anything. But they are words that society have deemed " rude" . You can be even more rude without using curse words, and it' s OK. I agree that curse words shouldn' t be overused or they lose their effect. Use them wisely.

whooooooh....do I regret bringing this topic back. It' s giving me more headaches now with a few posts than it did in the previous debate which gave way to 4 pages of posts. reggrefsdgesref....a leopard cannot change its stripes.

I think it has EVERYTHING to do with the way parents raise (or don' t raise) their dipsh!t kids. Many parents use the TV as a babysitter and/or don' t get involved enough in their child' s life.

That is another point I agree with.

And you say that you' re in America' s finest city?

I didn' t name San Diego " America' s Finest City" . Someone else or another group did, and they did it for particular reasons (although I don' t know which one they considered).

Holy crap! Taiwan in the most advanced country in the world? Or maybe Cambodia? I could go on and on with that one.

Lol...I cannot believe you didn' t understand that . By " The most advanced country in the world" I mean the United States. About corruptiveness, I follow with the fact that the medias are negatively influencing kids the most, therefore they are growing more fond of " liberal stuff" .

Ummm... who cares? Why not let them speak for themselves?

They HAVE spoken for themselves and that is where I get quotes from. Haven' t you ever quoted?

Is someone who says things like " So im against fags and all their ways" supposed to make me somehow actually respect them or you?

I never posted that I wanted anyone on this forum to respect me. I brought up past posts mainly as a means to support my position.

Well once we get to the point where we invent the time machine, maybe you can realize your dream and go back and live in the 1400' s. Things change, and it seems like you are afraid of change. I find your reactions hilarious!

Well, until you can invent one for me. Yes, things changed, and I' m against the changes. How many times have you accused me of being afraid of changes and having fears of this and that? A lot. And how many times have I responded that I am NOT afraid and I have NO fears of such changes. How hard is it to understand that I am simply against it? I will gladly die for just causes. Life ends in a flash, what am I so afraid of? " Hilarious" ?, and I you...

Why would the world concentrate on US domestic issues like gay marriage? Perhaps you meant to say that " this country" is so blinded instead of " the world" ?

And soon to be the world.

Let' s talk about cussing, then. It' ll be fun!

Do people ***really*** think that ANYONE would " choose" to be gay knowing how most people feel about it and risk being ridiculed, fired from work, joked about, and even killed? Think about it! I don' t think so. People are what they are sexually. And I think people fear what is not the norm. Just look how freaked out people are over gay marriage. Seriously, they are VERY afraid, as if their whole life will change or something.

Joe, Joe, Joe...

Even employers cannot discriminate against sexual preference...it' s against the law.

I don' t really think that most gay people are living in fear like they would have say 10-20 years ago.

Gay people are a fact of life, not to be ridiculed...

Yes, you can be fired just because you are gay in a great many states, including the one I live in. And people still beat gays to death because they feel it is the right thing to do.