Maybe we SHOULD be paying higher prices

Before you ask - yes I' ve seen the insane cost of accessories. Yes I think 100 bucks for a 20gig hard drive is a rip off. And yes 60 bucks per game will suck....

But we asked for it.

Not verbally or literally of course, no one in their right mind would want to pay more for less. But this isn' t the same videogame market from five or ten years ago and times have indeed changed. The people making games have changed. The philosophy behind making games have changed. The gamers have changed.

The videogame market isn' t ruled by hardcore gamers that determines which system succeeds based on what games it has. We witnessed the death of that during the Playstation 1 era. An era summed up by an influx of casual gamers who cherished quantity over quality.

And behind the scenes we saw a great demise of company loyalty has many developers gladly left Nintendo behind in favor of working on the cheaper and more profitable Playstation. More games were produced. More games were purchased. Now videogames is a multi-billion dollar industry (and last I heard the leading entertainment industry).

Gamers want more and more and more, and they want it all at the same price. But that really can' t happen. Microsoft and Sony knew full well they couldn' t release run-of-the-mill systems this time around. If Microsoft didn' t make the 360 with cutting edge technology, Sony would have with the PS3. Then guess what happens from there. The casual gamers turn away from the 360 because now it obviously has inferior graphics. And sadly, purty graphics will get you a fanbase before quality games (Dreamcast/PS2 tech demos anyone??).

Guess what else? Not only do gamers want more, but so do developers. They want more power to for better a.i., better graphics, and bigger and broader worlds. Just think about the fate of the Xbox if it had launched with merely PS2 level hardware. There would be no reason for devs to support another PS2 level machine when they could develop for the PS2 with an existing userbase and more promising profits.

Superior technology is what kept the Xbox alive. and now superior technology drives the industry. (at least for the time being before another gimmick arises) Gamers weren' t going to settle for an inferior system, and developers don' t want to settle for an inferior system either.

And I haven' t forgotten Nintendo, because Nintendo still plays a big part in this. Nintendo realizes they don' t need bleeding cutting edge technology in their systems to still be profitable. However, the difference between Sony/Microsoft and Nintendo is that Sony/Microsoft is out to win it, ALL of it. To do this they have to give you the best because the other is doing the same thing. Nintendo has said in the past they' re not trying to directly compete with Sony/MS in the technology department, and that' s why I fully expect Nintendo to make the most reasonably priced videogame console next gen (accessories included).

But Sony/MS is presenting us with top of the line hardware at a pretty cheap price. Tell me where I can get a cpu/gpu of 360' s caliber for 300 dollars?! Do you have a link on newegg where I can purchase the tech in the 360 for cheaper than 300 dollars?! I would love for you to show it to me. It’s no wonder the price of accessories is insane, it' s because the hardware is insane. Add to this rising development cost and nothing about the industry is getting cheaper.

Even if you disagree with Microsoft' s two separate 360 packages, the fact still remains they have to make up that loss somewhere.

Would you rather MS charge the TRUE price of the hardware and give you cheaper accessories/games? That would be even dumber on MS' s part because they wouldn' t sell enough systems to cover their massive expenses. And selling less systems also means selling less games which sucks for developers as well. I' m sure MS would love to sell the 360 for 300 bucks with a hard drive and everything else included because that would put some serious heat on Sony' s neck. But I think Microsoft' s realizes they simply can' t. They have to make money somewhere, and selling an even more expensive system at the cost of cheaper accessories is an even worse idea. And no one is in this industry to consistently lose money.

Now, all said, do I like the idea of rising prices? PHUCK NO I DON' T! But this IS the industry at the moment.

You make a lot lof valid points, but I just don' t think we should be paying a higher price. There' s a lot of money flying around out there, and they wouldn' t be in the business if they didn' t think they could make a profit. 50 bucks for wireless controllers, 100 for a tiny hard drive, proprietary HD cables for 50 bucks (so I can' t use the ones I already have that cost me 20), etc. is a ripoff. Videogames are turning into a hobby for the rich only, and that' s a sad thing. Pretty soon the only kids playing games will be the ones who could afford to go to ever increasingly expensive colleges living off of Daddy' s trust fund. In a way I look forward to an economic backlash, because when the economy crashes hard, and gas costs 10 bucks a litre, and Bananas 4 bucks a pound at the supermarket, you can bet video games will be one of the first things people will say " meh, maybe I don' t need that" . Then I' d like to see tech companies cry for a while.

Considering developement of the 360 surpassed a billion dollars alone how can you not expect to pay higher prices? People seem to forget these are supercomputers.

XBL Gamertag: Rampage99

" Basically, pollute the air all you want, your just speeding up the inevitable. Our future generations are f*cked as it is and there' s really nothing we can do about it. Have a nice day "

The only thing was that Microsoft made people think that it would cost $300 with a hard drive. Unfortunately I could barely afford the system with my summer earnings let alone a games. So buying a 360 with a hard drive is out of the question. Also I love add-ons and online games so a hard drive is a necessity. Another thing that has me questioning my reservation is the rumors about the HD-DVD drive. I' m definately canceling my preorder and waiting till a price drop and so I can see how it compares to the PS3.

I don' t even think God know how amazingly expensive the PS3 will be.

XBL Gamertag: Rampage99

" Basically, pollute the air all you want, your just speeding up the inevitable. Our future generations are f*cked as it is and there' s really nothing we can do about it. Have a nice day "

Nintendo, help us!!!

" Nintendo' s an innovator,
Sony' s an imitator."

Yet, for some reason, it' s Sony that gets all the credit.

ORIGINAL: Jason Zeidan

Nintendo, help us!!!

XBL Gamertag: Rampage99

" Basically, pollute the air all you want, your just speeding up the inevitable. Our future generations are f*cked as it is and there' s really nothing we can do about it. Have a nice day "

We' ll see if the industry will support high priced consoles and games.

I don' t mind the higher prices. You would be naiive to think that this kind of tech would come cheaply. I just don' t like the fact that Micorosft is selling 2 different systems. They should just scrap the castrated one and sell the full one for $399. Consumer confusion is NOT what Microsoft need at the moment.

" Nintendo' s an innovator,
Sony' s an imitator."

Yet, for some reason, it' s Sony that gets all the credit.

The thing is it' s much more expensive to develop in high resolutions (more code optimising and stuff) , 7.1 digital sound and multicore CPU' s.

What' s more -nextgen systems need more power to output in this mode with that kind of sound surrounding you.

I won' t be getting new HD capable TV anytime soon , plus DD and DTS 5.1 seems enough for me to keep my audio equipment just a bit longer.

Now why do I have to pay for all this stuff that I won' t use?

The core system should' ve been made for SD TV plus normal DD 5.1 sound and with HDD and wireless controller - this way u' d get all the next gen bonuses (wireless , graphics power) and the price would still be reasonable.

As for now - the core system is as crappy as it possibly can get , while the premium one is very expensive.

I already pay 80 dollars for every xbox game here,so my answere is no.
The price should be cheap,like 60 dollars per game.
Also we gonna pay 400 euro for xbox360 premium package which is $500.

Now i cant say where i could get the deal that MS is offer me,but then again,who said that just giving something nice is enough to convince us europeans to leave sony and their ps3 for xbox360?!
We cant say that xbox was a success in europe can we?
And how do you get people over to your side when they already shown what side they take?
By great prices,and the core package which a lot of people here was aiming for in terms of economy price,is quite useless and really feels like xbox 1.5


Also i can add that MS will probably take more in royalites from game developers in this gen then with the xbox,so we arn' t the one stealing ms money,MS take it back from the developers who make our games from the cost of the developing of xbox360,so if they want higher,its pure greed.
They are the new comers and should act like one.

hmmm...

I miss Ed fries the reason why he liked xbox is gone with xbox360,so i can understand why he left.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

Also i can add that MS will probably take more in royalites from game developers in this gen then with the xbox,so we arn' t the one stealing ms money,MS take it back from the developers who make our games from the cost of the developing of xbox360,so if they want higher,its pure greed.

You do realise that with the added complexity of developing a game on multiple cores and other state of the art equipment that most game development companies have had to increase their staff several times in order to cope.

Larger staff and more complex game development = higher costs

Higher costs = more expensive products for the end user.

Have you ever heard of inflation? It' s the reason why $100 can' t buy you jack these days. 10 years ago, it would have been able to buy you much much more. If you think that in the year 2010 you' ll be able to buy the PS4/Xbox 720/etc for $300 you are sadly mistaken.

They are the new comers and should act like one

You want them to make stupid business decisions just because they' re new?

As much as I' d hate to admit it, Microsoft is doing A LOT of things right this time around. You may not be able to see the reason for the core package now, but wait until all of the hardcore fans have bought the premium packages. It' s giving newcomers a chance to enter the market without having to sell a kidney in order to do so. What' s wrong with that?

They should just scrap the castrated one and sell the full one for $399.

They do that and they' d likely sell significantly less units. Not everyone is into online gaming, and not every current Xbox owner wants to plunk down $400 clams for a console. I certainly am not and am looking forward to the $299 version which I think is at a more than reasonable price. I look at my PlayStation 2 which came pretty bare bones with no extras for $299 and I don' t feel the least bit jipped, the same will go for the $299 Xbox 360 core unit.

Terry Bogard - currently the most Unhelpful member of the Kikizo forums.

I tend to agree that gaming is getting more and more expensive. Heck, I was totally left out of this closing generation for the most part because of funds. I am sorry, but things like food, and rent, and gas, and tuition are just a little more important to me than a video game console. I cannot fathom people foolish enough to drop money like that on a video game system.

My other thought is, if it costs this much to create the technology... do we need the technology? Seriously, what a waste of time and resources making sure that your nintendo is now a " supercomputer" . What the heck can it do? Play a freakin Mario game.... whoo hoo! that is going to solve all the world' s problems.

If this is the way of gaming for the future, I might as well bow out now. I sure as $hit can' t afford it now, so I certainly won' t be able to in the future. Like Mxpx182 said, the economic crash is going to come, and luxuries like gaming will be the first things to go (with any luck, I hope the world is sane enough to value bananas over video games).

You want them to make stupid business decisions just because they' re new?

No,i want them to give more then they do now.
Core is completly useless,and its sad that people who might enter MS machine wont have a memory card or a demo disc when they get the console on the holiday.
Gonna be a lot of angry kids...
I also think that people will doubt here,why there is 2 console package,and might feel confused(the new gamers) and they probably will wait for the mainstream ps3.
Also try and remember,that we pay 100 dollar more for every package in europe,then in USA.
Core cost as much as your premium package,why would new people pay that?
When they gonna hear from friends etc,that ps3 is coming,and how useless core is,and they better wait for NR or PS3?

As much as I' d hate to admit it, Microsoft is doing A LOT of things right this time around. You may not be able to see the reason for the core package now, but wait until all of the hardcore fans have bought the premium packages. It' s giving newcomers a chance to enter the market without having to sell a kidney in order to do so. What' s wrong with that?

The newcomers a chance?
Which new comers?!
People from USA then,not europe.
Also they wont be able to get velocitygirl now,cause of the lack of the HDD,they themself said they would get her by having a HDD and using the media device so she could create maps and upload and save music etc.
Oh wait,she should buy the core?
then the $100 dollar HDD as J.allard claims it cost?

Larger staff and more complex game development = higher costs

Higher costs = more expensive products for the end user.

Have you ever heard of inflation? It' s the reason why $100 can' t buy you jack these days. 10 years ago, it would have been able to buy you much much more. If you think that in the year 2010 you' ll be able to buy the PS4/Xbox 720/etc for $300 you are sadly mistaken.

I wrote that in a respond recently to some post where i said inflation and currency is one reason why the consoles costed more before etc,i mean 1 dollar was 11.60 kronor when Clinton was president,under the iraq war sometime with bush it was 6.30 once.
Also you say i would be sadly mistaken,well at that time i probably have much more money seeing how the inflation gonna go up,so it will not be a trouble either.

I know it cost more to make games,that is one reason why MS shouldn' t take more royalities,dont you agree?!

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

ORIGINAL: QuezcatoL

...and the core package which a lot of people here was aiming for in terms of economy price,is quite useless and really feels like xbox 1.5

ORIGINAL: ]GaNgStA[

As for now - the core system is as crappy as it possibly can get , while the premium one is very expensive.

I disagree.

Although the core system comes with the same accesories as the PS2 (no HD, wired controllers, no memory card included, no games, etc.) it costs the same price as the Playstation and PS2 at their respective launches. Even though it is indeed NEXT GEN technology. To be quite honest, I didn' t use the hard drive on my Xbox very much, and if you don' t go online, it' s really not a bad idea to get the core (as Terry has stated).

ORIGINAL: Rikka

I cannot fathom people foolish enough to drop money like that on a video game system.

You just called almost everyone on this forum a fool. WOW!

I swear... I don' t want to hear about that damn Velocity Girl anymore!!! That was the absolute stupidest part of the E3 presentation! Making up those gay names for the generalized gamers. It' s dumb! Don' t use those terms anymore!!!

I can' t believe Totally Xbox J Allard every agreed to saying such stupid crap.

XBL Gamertag: Rampage99

" Basically, pollute the air all you want, your just speeding up the inevitable. Our future generations are f*cked as it is and there' s really nothing we can do about it. Have a nice day "

Well they wanted all people.
Just look at e3.they putted as much black' s and latinos as white/asia people in that circle around them(nothing wrong with that though).
Also it was like 1/3 girls of all there.
I doubt thats how the gaming audience really looks like?!.
We never saw any geek-like person there too.
Feelt very weird,like they arn' t allowed to be there? wrong image?
I mean all in the audience was 25-30 and did not look like the average gamer.
They also seemed to have no idea about games,cheering/applauding like crazy for wrong games(if you can say so?).
For them madden/godfather was the best games at e3...I really hope MS understand that' s not how european gonna look at games...Nor do the the others gamers in USA i think/hope.

But then again,Nintendo was worser,they putted a lot of fanboys laughing cheering for nothing.
I mean they talk about how GBA is the challenge vs ps2 and the people bought it?!
Or when they laugh at how stupid idea gameboy micro was,then when they realise its a portable that is true,they cheered and loved it O_o??? wtf?!
Also there was no signs of numbers regarding Gamecube sales,or how to turn the wind.
Also if NR doesnt give us that amazing controller that will revolutionize how we think about gaming as they promise,then their strongest card will be their backwardcomptitables,and that will not lure new fans,and it seems they already lost a lot of them to xbox.


And sony?!


Well...seeing how they got a history of promise a lot more then they can keep,showing pre-rendered videos that none played was not the best idea.
For me they showed nothing,for new gamers,they might have bought Ken' s videos but i didn' t.





Just like to add that i dont think gamers look worser then others,nor that the age in gamers is below 20,i played in a guild with people at 30-40,my brother and sis are gamers and 22-28 so yes i know.
Anyway...thats how i looked at e3.

I think all three shows where made wrong.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.

I thought this was a pretty informative post about the whole situation. From site: T.XBOX

*******
most people thought the idea was crazy but look at where we are now. xbox1 would have been better served with more ram and selling the hdd as an add-on with live. and that is basically what msft is doing with x360

there were 2 basic problems with including hdd in xbox1. a) lost money. they lost sales from memory cards and had to eat the cost of including a hdd. b) the hdd wasn' t utilized well. the hdd didn' t enable some killer feature. cd-rom on ps1 enable cgi cut scenes which was utilized by FF7 and put ps1 on the map. whatever features the hdd added many people are still unaware of (custom soundtracks, unlimited/large saves, streaming). many people aren' t aware because these features don' t sell games. they' re nice, but don' t sell games.

there were only 2 types of games that would make true use of a hdd to make distinctive games. blinx and a mmorpg. the problem with blinx is that it wasn' t a great game. the problem with mmorpg is that one was never made for xbox1


the other general thing to look at is you get by having a hdd and if msft thought it' s worth it:
1) custom soundtracks. a nice feature, but not groundbreaking. will be enable by memory card and other usb devices anyway (ipod, psp)
2) virutally no save limit. again nice feature. but something not everyone will appreciate. also, a memory card is good enough for this function.
3) dlc. you will be able to use memory card for this to a limited degree. but more importantly, not everyone will go online. 10% this generation, maybe 20% next generation. it makes more sense to have the online users pay for the hdd and lower the cost of the console, then to have everyone pay for the hdd when they won' t really need it.

and then the two most complained about:
4) streaming. streaming allows for big worlds. but this will still be possible (in fact it' s done in ps2) and the effects of not having a hdd have been over exaggerated to an extreme. let' s look at the situation. an hdd can send data at sustained rate of about 50mbytes/sec. a 12x dvd-rom can send data at about 15mbytes/sec. that' s not a huge difference and won' t affect games much. to simplify: imagine playing a 2-d game world. the amount of the world stored could be 100 yards long. maybe with a hdd you could make the 10 yards of buffer on each end. so when you hit 90 yards, the game will delete yards 0-10, and stream in yards 100-110. now there' s 512 mbyte ram to play with. maybe with hdd you could use 50 mybte buffer, and 450 mbyte for game world. but since we now stream off of dvd-rom we need larger buffer because it' ll take longer to load. so 100mbyte buffer and 400mbyte game world. whatever the real numbers are, it will not be a huge difference between size of game world possible with hdd vs dvd-rom. the other very important point to make is that smart programming has as much a factor in making loading seem seamless as data transfer rates
5) mmorpg. this is probably the most valid and perhaps only true reason to include a hdd. the obvious first point to make thought is that mmorpg is not, and at least for this generation, will not be mainstream. not only because of the nature of mmorpg, but more importantly because of the monthly fees. so it' s not worth subsidizing the cost of giving everyone a hdd, just it would help sell mmorpg to a small portion of the x360 population. it makes more sense to have that small population buy the hdd separately.

so the only real reason to include a hdd is if mmorpg would be a selling point for x360. a selling point as much as FF7 was for ps1. and i think most will be able to agree that the answer to this question is no.

so including a hdd in x360 would have again been a waste. arguments about fractionating the x360 population is mostly arguments about fractionating game features that many people aren' t even aware of.

given all things hdd could bring, being able to offer x360 core at a lower price point is more important than having hdd standard with a higher priced 1 sku x360. (and as a side benefit they have everyone convinced of the value you get from buying the $400 premium. notice no one is complaining about paying a higher price point or that the premium is too expensive. you should appreciate that they' ve been able to pull this off by comparing to how people complain about the psp value pack and see that as a rip off and would rather pay for a barebones version)

also by not putting money into a standard hdd, msft instead invested in making a great cpu/gpu and loaded up on ram (remember there was question of 256mb vs 512mb). people say the graphics difference between x360 and ps3 will be a wash. this is also very important point to consider because in current generation, xbox1 came out 1 year later than ps2 and the graphical difference is obvious. but in next generation some are claiming that x360 will even surpass ps3 because of its elegant design and focus on procedural synthesis. time will tell. if it came down to choice between having a hdd with all the features listed but with lesser graphics, or the choice we have now, which would you choose? (and there is no " all of the above" choice. even if msft has billions, it doesn' t mean they will spend billions on a project)

most of you think x360 core is stupid, a marketing gimmick, and a transition to x360 premium. i think x360 premium is a way to transition you legacy xbox1 owners over to x360 platform. hdd was a gamble at changing the console model and it failed (for comparison, successful changes include memory cards, 4 controller ports, analog sticks, optical media). now msft is reversing from the console model they were trying to create and going back to the model of having storage as an accessory. don' t expect a standard hdd from here on out. having standard storage is more likely to come in a different form of technology like flash media (nintendo will have it this upcoming generation, and i' d bet all have it the generation after).

and for those of you who will try to redefine the word " standard" , a) standard means everyone, 100%. b) if you' re gonna post the 85/15 number [which still doesn' t mean standard] post a real source for the number

Oblivion to xbox360 will take advantage of the HDD it could be made to cach file with lower the loading times.
Its the only way to fullfill the vision about a " media device" and let people dl demos/trailers for xbox360 games.
Lack of HDD was not a good choice.

Even if you break 2 legs from a crab it still runs!
What you gotta do is find its weak spot and do massive damage at it.