Gamespot inverview with Perry

GS: You mentioned the Wii as a disruptive innovation in the gaming industry, and Jamil drew a parallel to digital cameras essentially making old Polaroids all but obsolete. Do you think traditional games are actually going to be hurt by the Wii' s success?

DP: To carry the analogy forward, I think if Nintendo keeps innovating this way and nobody else does, it could spell doom and gloom for [those who don' t innovate]. They' re reacting. They' re not just sitting back. The concern was price as well. Prices were very high, but they' re realizing that and they' re trying to get the prices down. They' re also adding on more and more features, like the EyeToy, the Xbox Vision camera, that keyboard so you can type on the controller…

But nobody' s going to be able to respond to it this time around. The question is what happens next time around. Are they going to ignore [the Wii] like it never happened and just keep the arms race going? Or are they going to try to play the Nintendo game, which is to go for the mass market? That' s going to be where the answer happens. If Nintendo somehow keeps going in this direction--if they innovate yet again and surprise us all again--that could be bad. That could be very unhealthy for everybody else.

Gamesindustry Article!

As the Wii threatens to overtake the 360, what now for third-party publishers?

The vagaries of sales figure reporting across the world' s major territories make it quite hard to establish where, exactly, the tipping point lies - but it seems likely that at some point around now, Nintendo' s Wii will become (or has become) the top selling home console of the next generation.

It' s entirely possible that this lead will change hands a few times in the coming months, as games like Halo 3 drive a sales spike for the Xbox 360 - but the trajectory of the Wii' s sales curve suggests that even a moderately successful holiday season should bring it out comfortably on top when the bells ring on New Year' s Day.

Obviously, this is wonderful news for Nintendo - a firm which has gone from dominating the videogames industry to being seen as an innovative underdog, and suddenly finds itself on the path back to being the market leader. However, it' s also likely to lead to many tough questions being asked in the boardrooms of third-party publishers across the industry.

To put it bluntly, there are many people in third-party development and publishing who won' t be terribly happy to see Nintendo out in front. There is a perception in the industry that the success of a Nintendo platform is not necessarily followed by success for publishers who support that platform - and as a result, many would prefer to see the continued dominance of the PlayStation platform, which is perceived as more conducive to third-party success.

It' s not an entirely unfair view to hold. History relates that the most successful titles on Nintendo platforms are almost always Nintendo' s first-party products - a stark contrast to Sony' s ecosystem, where the biggest winners on the software front have traditionally been third-party publishers such as EA, Take Two and Square Enix.

It' s not just the headline titles that count, however - it' s the overall market share which is held by first-party titles. The huge success of brands such as Pokemon, Mario and Zelda have meant that in recent years, Nintendo' s platforms have been dominated by sales of its own games. The Wii is continuing this trend, with over half of all software sales on the platform being first-party.

Nintendo recognises this as a problem, with president Satoru Iwata telling Newsweek this week that he believes that third-party publishers want Nintendo' s share of the software market to drop to one-third.

Iwata reckons that next year, third-party software will be more prevalent on the Wii, taking with it the widely held perception that the firm is too powerful on its own platform. In the meanwhile, however, there' s a strong argument that this is a great problem for a firm like Nintendo to have.

The incredible success of the Wii console has been driven, and will continue to be driven, by first-party software. The most important titles in the future line-up for the system are almost exclusively first-party titles, and despite Iwata' s positive noises regarding the future of third-party software on the Wii, it' s likely that for the next 12 months at least, third-party game sales will largely be picked up in the wake left behind by the hugely successful first-party titles.

Nintendo, however, can hardly be blamed for making good games. Indeed, while publishers and developers may bite their bottom lips at the ongoing success of the Wii, the simple fact is that this is a challenge which they must knuckle down and meet head-on.

Nintendo is turning up to the party with millions of consumers and a platform which is almost uniquely cheap to develop for. The opportunity to make money is very clear, and the signs all suggest that Nintendo' s targets for the platform (16.5 million units sold by March 2008) are likely to be limited by the firm' s ability to manufacture consoles fast enough, not by demand. No publisher can afford to ignore the platform.

However, success on the Wii will require something many publishers aren' t very good at - innovation, and its attendant partner, risk. Developing products for the Wii is cheap, no more expensive than developing for the PS2. However, it is risky, because the console demands new styles of gameplay, new types of user interaction, and new forms of content that appeal to an audience more diverse than those found on other console platforms.

As such, it is only to be expected that the Wii will be home to some high-profile failures as well as high-profile successes. Many publishers have become experts at avoiding risk on conventional console platforms, but those strategies will prove ineffective on the Wii - where a low-risk strategy of multi-platform porting and focusing on franchise sequels is likely to be a commercial disaster.

The Wii' s success is undeniable - but for third party publishers, the challenge posed by the console is equally clear. The gauntlet is on the floor; it' s not up to Nintendo to haul third-party firms up by the lapels. Rather, it is up to the third parties to demonstrate that they, too, can deliver innovation and fresh content. If Nintendo' s market share of Wii software remains this high next year, it' s important to remember that it is the third parties, not Nintendo, who will have failed to rise to the opportunity before them.

Two different views of what the Wii means for the industry. Both arent entirely positiv, though it might just be the fear of change, but if going going for a mass market approach means going after the lowest possible demeanor, then im not for it.

Keeping the cost down and thus making the console weaker, will provide incentive for me to change back to PC gaming for a highpowered visuals A.I and physics. The PS3 and 360 deliver somewhat of what the PC does at 25% the cost, making it more affordable than a reasonable game PC.

Well the GI article raises a few good points (some of which i' ve already tried to explain to the Nintendo nubs here, but hey, what do i know eh!?) but Dave Perry hasn' t put out a decent game since MDK, and that was a decade ago.

I can' t see how the Wii can be bad for the whole industry.
It' s bad for Nintendo fans who want next-gen versions of Nintendos franchises and their entertaining gameplay.
But the whole industry won' t be hurt by it. Hardcore gamers are still the biggest group so developers will still focus on them. The only difference is that they can make an extra $ on all the casual and non-gamers via the Wii.

Bollocks.. (at the thread, not ur comments Gin..lol)


The main two reasons why 3rd devs would ever moan about the Wii:


1: Power

Wii' s not powerful enough for them to make another version of GRAW2, GEARS or COD4 ECT.

2: Working with less and coming up with more (Creative will)

Not creative enough or not in the same frame-mind as Nintendo, or other Devs when it comes to making creative games and coming up with new ideas that are good ones.. Too busy trying to create PC type experinces as opposed to ' Home console' ones.


This is why you' ll see the More creative devs like: Konami, Capcom, SEGA, Temco ect only Praise the Machine and its controller and direction.

Aslo as gin kinda stated, Bringing in Masses of new Gamers is Only good for the industry.

I think the biggest point they have is that 3rd party developers will see less profit when a Nintendo console is dominating the market since Nintendo' s games always steals all the sales from everything else.
BUT I have a logical explantation for that: 3rd party titles on nintendo consoles always suck! Did the Gamecube have GTA? Tekken? Virtua Fighter? Okami? Shenmue? Final Fantasy XII? Knights of the old republic? Doom 3? No, they only got shit.
And the second reason is that traditionally Nintendo consoles have been bought by Nintendo fans and kids. That makes it more likely that Nintendos software will sell better.
BUT, the Wii is bought by more than just Nintendo fans and kids which means that the potential to sell good 3rd party titles is dramatically increased.

Bollocks.. (at the thread, not ur comments Gin..lol)


The main two reasons why 3rd devs would ever moan about the Wii:


1: Power

Wii' s not powerful enough for them to make another version of GRAW2, GEARS or COD4 ECT.

2: Working with less and coming up with more (Creative will)

Not creative enough or not in the same frame-mind as Nintendo, or other Devs when it comes to making creative games and coming up with new ideas that are good ones.. Too busy trying to create PC type experinces as opposed to ' Home console' ones.


This is why you' ll see the More creative devs like: Konami, Capcom, SEGA, Temco ect only Praise the Machine and its controller and direction.

Aslo as gin kinda stated, Bringing in Masses of new Gamers is Only good for the industry.

I know your the holy protector of the Wii, but if only creative will is to drive a console, why not just release a system powered with a mega drive or something.

There is more to innovation than just making up new things. And some of those require power, if you take one step backwards and one step forward you end up right where you started.

You mention some " creative" companies praising the console, but we have yet to see a single 3rd party wii game worth considering.

As stated by gamesindustry, there is a considerate risk producing " different" games, since it might as well backfire if not done probably, this raises costs which isnt good for alot of the mainstream games.

Its hard to make games for the wii since the controller is limited in other ways than a standard device, and in some ways more capable.

In anycase its bad if the Wii means that next gen will have lower price consoles at the cost of console power, its a turn for the worse.

There is more to innovation than just making up new things. And some of those require power, if you take one step backwards and one step forward you end up right where you started.

When the 360 and the PS3 has shown a title with gameplay that far surpases the last generation I will submit to your wisdom. So far, next-gen games have had current-gen gameplay. With a few improvements of course like more advanced physics, but nothing that has evolved or vastly improved the gameplay to an extent that the power gives creative force an advantage.

You mention some " creative" companies praising the console, but we have yet to see a single 3rd party wii game worth considering.

That problem isn' t related to the hardware, it' s mor related to the lazyness of the developers and their focus on making quick n' easy money on ports and crap titles. Besides, the Wii hasn' t been around for that long. It wasn' t until Gears that the 360 had anything to brag about.

As stated by gamesindustry, there is a considerate risk producing " different" games, since it might as well backfire if not done probably, this raises costs which isnt good for alot of the mainstream games.

That risk is always present regardless if you develop games for the Wii or any other console. I for one am glad that developers try to do " different" things. Since the audience of the Wii will be more open for new ideas since the whole Wii image is based on such thoughts, I think that the risk of failure for a " different" title is even less than on other consoles.

Its hard to make games for the wii since the controller is limited in other ways than a standard device, and in some ways more capable.

Correction: It' s hard to make STANDARD games for the Wii. Developers has to realise that you can' t just make the same gameplay but with a different controller. Gameplay has to change from the core. That' s why we' ve seen so many crap games on the Wii. They haven' t changed anything, they just replaced the controller buttons which is far from Nintendos vision of games on the Wii.

In anycase its bad if the Wii means that next gen will have lower price consoles at the cost of console power, its a turn for the worse.

This generation we have the 360 and the PS3 and those consoles cater to their respective target groups. In the next generation, Nintendo will probably have to catch up.
But as I said, so far the power of the 360 and the PS3 hasn' t provided any major changes in gameplay and as such, games still remain as fun as they' ve always been. As long as games are fun, who cares? If the purpose of videogames are achieved then power, controllers or brands don' t mean shit. If videogames on the Wii are fun, who cares about power?

Two thirds of 360 game sales are by third party games. Two thirds of Wii game sales are by first party games. Factor in the software attach ratios and go figure which is more appealing to third parties...

ORIGINAL: Nitro

Two thirds of 360 game sales are by third party games. Two thirds of Wii game sales are by first party games. Factor in the software attach ratios and go figure which is more appealing to third parties...

Three thirds of Wii 3rd party games are CRAP! If they made good games and invested some time and money on them instead of making quick crap titles and ports then I promise you we' d see better results for 3rd party developers.

As a Gamecube owner I know how it works. I didn' t buy any 3rd party titles for the Gamecube. But was it because Nintendo' s games are better than 3rd party games? F*** NO! It was because the 3rd parties never made any good games for the GCN. All their good efforts went to the Xbox and the PS2.
I would' ve bought tons of 3rd party titles for the GCN if there had been any worth my time and money.

When the 360 and the PS3 has shown a title with gameplay that far surpases the last generation I will submit to your wisdom. So far, next-gen games have had current-gen gameplay. With a few improvements of course like more advanced physics, but nothing that has evolved or vastly improved the gameplay to an extent that the power gives creative force an advantage.

Which game last gen surpassed everything that was done prior to that?

ORIGINAL: ginjirou

Three thirds of Wii 3rd party games are CRAP! If they made good games and invested some time and money on them instead of making quick crap titles and ports then I promise you we' d see better results for 3rd party developers.

And the reasons they haven' t are stated quite clearly in the GI article VX linked to. They' re considered risky. It' s the same with DS and the only titles that have come anywhere near the kind of sales Nintendo' s own games have enjoyed are the Final Fantasy remakes. Most DS games are trash and it' ll be the same for Wii.

Nintendo don' t need to do shit because they' re making millions on software sales which are the backbone of this industry and third parties know they can' t compete with Nintendo' s dominance on it' s own platform, which is why Iwata said he realized publishers want Nintendo share of the consoles software market to drop to a third.

Third parties have to figure out who they' re targeting and adapt their games accordingly, and since Wii' s install base is far more casual, they' ll have to create more casual games. What happens then is we lose out because shit like Brain Training just ain' t my bag baby.

The GI article echoes exactly what i said months ago.

Which game last gen surpassed everything that was done prior to that?

Not many. But the few who did surpass the games before them did so thanks to gameplay enhancements affected by creative ideas, not by the power. Power can only tweak games and make them look prettier.
But the awesome core gameplay comes from great ideas and the true beauty comes from great art work.
If there had been no 360 or PS3 or Wii, we would' ve seen games on the PS2, GCN and Xbox that just got better, and better and better even if the hardware remained as weak as it was, because the ideas would still improve and for each title that is released developers would learn new things and improve on past efforts.

Power only fixes the tiny corners of a much larger picture. A picture made of ideas unlimited by hardware, limited only by one' s imagination.

(I should be a spokesman for the Wii, seriously! )

Most DS games are trash and it' ll be the same for Wii.

If you compare the good games/bad games ratio on a console like the PS2, you' ll see the same result. Huge amount of bad games isn' t related to the hardware, it' s related to the developers trying to make money on cheap crap.
The DS has a good amount of great games. Games that justifies the features of the DS

Third parties have to figure out who they' re targeting and adapt their games accordingly, and since Wii' s install base is far more casual, they' ll have to create more casual games. What happens then is we lose out because shit like Brain Training just ain' t my bag baby.

That' s the only argument that I can agree with. More casual people among Wii owners means more focus on games of their like from 3rd party developers.
But around 10 million Wii units have been sold. Far from half of them are probably casual gamers. That means there are still millions of hardcore players, more than that of the PS3, that long for hardcore games. That' s a huge amount of potential profit for a 3rd party developer and as such I expect 3rd party developers to keep creating hardcore games.
As the amount of titles on the Wii increases, so will the hardcore gamers and so will the focus on games of their like.
That is, if everything proceeds as it should. But this is the dark and terrible reality so maybe everything will go to hell just like everything else in this godamn cursed world!

Not many. But the few who did surpass the games before them did so thanks to gameplay enhancements affected by creative ideas, not by the power. Power can only tweak games and make them look prettier.
But the awesome core gameplay comes form great ideas and the true beauty comes from great art work.
If there had been no 360 or PS3 or Wii, we would' ve seen games on the PS2, GCN and Xbox that just got better, and better and better even if the hardware remained as weak as it was, because the ideas would still improve and for each title that is released developers would learn new things and improve on past efforts.

Power only fixes the tiny corners of a much larger picture. A picture made of ideas unlimited by hardware, limited by only ones imagination.

But the creativity that was in the last generation is not totally reset upon a new one.

This way we are getting prettier games that can offer expansive enviroments, more details, better more potential for A.I.

Those werent possible in the same degree in the last gen, you could create a great variety of games, but nothing in the 360 or PS3 is hindering that.

The Wii is more limited that the other consoles IMO

I' m not saying power is a limiting factor. Of course power is a good thing. You can NEVER have too much power. I' m just saying that just because the Wii lacks the kind of power the other two consoles have it doesn' t mean it' s worthless.

I' m not saying power is a limiting factor. Of course power is a good thing. You can NEVER have too much power. I' m just saying that just because the Wii lacks the kind of power the other two consoles have it doesn' t mean it' s worthless.

Well then you arent getting the point, What if the Wii means less power to lower costs in the forthcoming next next gen!

Well then you arent getting the point, What if the Wii means less power to lower costs in the forthcoming next next gen!

And you' re missing MY point. If gameplay is still awesomely fun and entertaining even without extra power, does it really matter if we' ll see a slower progress in processing power?


But whatever, why would the Wii mean less power in the future?
We are talking about two different segments of the audience here.

Some people, like you, would NEVER buy anything that' s weaker than the latest shit on the hardware front.

Some people, like Virtua Fighter, would NEVER buy anything that doesn' t enhance or simplifies past forms of entertainment.

And some people, like me, prefer two have both things.

Both powerful AND weak consoles have their target groups, their guarantied profits and their guarantied quality. If the products become good or not, is up to the manufacturers and how well the developers utilize the potential offered.
You can be sure that powerful consoles will always be profitable enough to motivate their existence. As such, your needs will always be satisfied.
The Wii simply tries to satisfy the needs of other people. A part of the market that has been ignored for quite a while. It does not try to compete with your needs, even though it tries to satisfy those as well.

Once again you miss the point!

It' s reasonable to think that MS and Sony will copy some of nintendos buisness plan and thus make slower cheaper consoles next time around.

I want games to be fun, its the primary goal of them. But as it is now PS3 and 360 games are more fun than those on the Wii, partly because the look of them is dated, its like slapping on an old game but without the nostalgia to keep it good.

I do own a wii, and ill play the main titles for it, though im dreading how Mario Kart is going to be, i imagine its going to be awful with the wii stick

It' s reasonable to think that MS and Sony will copy some of nintendos buisness plan and thus make slower cheaper consoles next time around.

No that' s not reasonable. There are millions of people who demand the most powerful hardware possible on a new console. You' re one of them, one of millions of potential buyers of a new console. Do you really think MS or Sony would give up all those millions of people just for the profits they can get from casual gamers who buy like, five titles a year? Not a chance! They' ll never give up on you because you' re too profitable.
Let' s say MS wants to go the Nintendo way and release a weak console. Then Sony would have the chance of their life to make an uber-powerful consoles that beats Microsofts console by far. Then millions would ONLY buy Sony' s consoles for that single reason. MS would never allow that.
This occurence with a weak console will only work THIS generation. Next generation innovation AND power will be required if the companies want to keep a reasonable amount of the marketshare.

I want games to be fun, its the primary goal of them. But as it is now PS3 and 360 games are more fun than those on the Wii, partly because the look of them is dated, its like slapping on an old game but without the nostalgia to keep it good.

Well, comparing current games available I' d also say 360 and PS3 games are more fun. But in time I expect this to change, at least for me. Perhaps not for you but I think you' ll find titles that you will enjoy.
In comparison I do find more PSP, PS2, GCN, Xbox and DS games that are fun than games on the PS3 and the 360. So it' s not related to the power in my case.

I do own a wii, and ill play the main titles for it, though im dreading how Mario Kart is going to be, i imagine its going to be awful with the wii stick

i never liked Mario Kart in the first place. I' m more interested in F-Zero and I see huge potential in the Wii-mote for that franchise. But they have to keep the precision and sense of speed from previous games or it' ll be worthless.

Your guess is as good as mine, part of Nintendos success is markating it as a cheap family console.

I hardly think they will shy away from that approach next generation. And if the 3rd party devs then start supporting the major weak console, then we back at square one, fewer good games on the powerful consoles.

though there will be good games on something that should have been released 5 years ago.

I dont know, after playing in high defination, the wii simply looks bad.